Southeast Asia: Solo travel, Eurocentric curriculums and stepping out of your comfort zone

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

In this episode, I am joined by the incredible Ilhaam (@simplyilhaam) as we discuss her year abroad experience in Malaysia. We touch on solo traveling as a Black Muslim woman, the importance of stepping out of your comfort zone, adapting to being alone, the different education systems as well as white supremacy in Southeast Asia.

Sagal

Hey everybody, welcome back to Memnoire - a podcast dedicated to experience of black students who go abroad. In this episode, I'm joined by a really, really, really good friend of mine, Ilhaam. Please introduce yourself my G.

Ilhaam

Hi, everybody. My name is Ilhaam. I also attend the same university as Sagal. And I'm a final year student studying global health.

Sagal

Sick. I'm so glad you could join me today. So, you went abroad as well just like me. So like okay, let us know. Where did you go?

Ilhaam

Guys, so I went to Southeast Asia, Malaysia. I lived in Kuala lumper. So I stayed there for whole year.

Sagal

Mad ... mad. Very Mad! And what were you doing there?

Ilhaam

So I went there, obviously to do my year abroad as an exchange students. Yeah, and I also like volunteered and traveled.

Sagal

Sick calm alright cool. Well, I'm gonna just jump straight into the questions. The first question I have for you is what was your first impression when you got there?

Ilhaam

I think firstly, when I got to the country, I was like, "ah! It's so hot finally!" And in terms of the university, I went late, so I missed out on that sort of introductory week. Yeah, so I missed out on that week. But the university was gigantic like Sagal I kid you not, it's like a mini city. It's got a lake. It had a forest. It was so big, like, you literally have to go around in a cab. And also, when I went to Malaysia, it was Haze season. So that's basically when they burn the crops in Borneo, which is an island shared by Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei. And they burn the palm trees. And that sort of causes a disgusting smog. And no one told me! I was suffocating for two months. Literally, we had to wear masks, and some of our classes were canceled.

Sagal

That is crazy. And did you feel like when you got there ... obviously it's a Muslim country ... did you feel like out of place? How did you feel like in terms of like culturally,

Ilhaam

um, because I've been there before, I was sort of kind of used to the stares and stuff. But being in a university setting, it was a bit disappointing to know that people were shocked that black people could be Muslim. Like "Ah! What?! Are you a revert?". And I'd be like "no" [laughter]. And it would be like you'd be going to pray Salah [islamic prayer] and they'd be like, "Oh, so you really pray?" And I'm like, "Well, I don't know why I wear a hijab ... I don't know is it just for fun" [laughs].

Sagal

That is mad. And so was this the first time you'd [gone away] like .... okay, so you said you've been to Malaysia before but was this the first time you've been like away for a long time?

Ilhaam

Not really, to be fair, because when I was younger, in my younger years, my parents sent me and my siblings to live in Kenya. And although they were there, there were periods of times where we never had our parents. So no but it was the first time I was alone by myself.

Sagal

How is it like being alone cuz for me, I remember like, when I went Geneva it was the first time I was alone as well. So it was proper weird like ... rah they're no siblings around me to bother me. Like everyone's just like [doing their own thing] ... it's just me by myself. How was it like for you being alone?

Ilhaam

Oh, my days, firstly I was ecstatic I'm not gonna lie. Finally my own space. No one's gonna come into my room. But I think it's funny because I wasn't really alone. So I chose to live on campus. And I also chose to stay in like a shared accommodation. So where you just share the room, and like toilets, so it was me and someone else, but because I knew that every weekend, you know, I'm gonna go visit somewhere else, I'm going to travel I did not want to spend too much on like a luxury apartment. Although I did splurge a couple of times, but it made more sense because the college was so big. And transport in Kuala Lumpur is horrible. Like you literally have to take a cab which is fine because it's quite affordable, but the traffic is horrific. So it made sense for me to live on campus. But even though I was like without my family said like, quote unquote "alone", my room was basically an open space for people. I never locked my room so people just come in all the time. Like just come in for chats and tea and yeah, so I was never really alone.

Sagal

Hmmm mad! Okay, so in the last episode I spoke about like coming from a big family and then like leaving to study alone abroad somewhere and it's just like ... for me I struggled a little bit because like I said before i was so used to do everything with someone else or I was so used to like having like families as kind of a back-up option - like if anything happened I would go to them to speak about stuff. But obviously [when abroad] with family obviously you can call them and stuff but do you feel like you developed like a real sense of independence when you were abroad?

Ilhaam

Yeah I would say I did. I did obviously like stay in contact with my family as you would but in those time where you really need to talk to someone I am nine hours away - there was a nine hour time difference

Sagal

It's so peak! I even remember fam there was times I was messaging you and literally you'd be like, "yeah it's like three am" and I'm like what are you doing?!

Ilhaam

Literally like the time difference between Europe and Southeast Asia is like so broad so even when I really wanted to like ... maybe I felt like I wanted to talk about something right, but I really couldn't contact the people that I cared about most - it was really difficult. So I sort of had to ... through obviously through your help because we did support each other through this journey and like my other friends. Yeah literally you were like "just write it down, journal it" and like through sort of developing these small hacks I was able to like deal with situations that I wouldn't have been able to. So it was tricky because of the nine hour difference. And I tell you it's so hard to navigate. Like if you want to talk to someone I would have to literally stay awake but Malaysia is the kind of place where you know, there's no real bed time it's like 24 hours ... so yeah,

Sagal

That's different because when I was in Geneva I clocked people sleep early and people wake up early as well. So for me it wasn't even possible for me to be sleeping too late like .... like my sleep schedule now is disgusting it's horrendous! But when I was there I was sleeping at like 11 ... 11:30pm I was in bed sleeping snoring - I was gone. But yeah it's mad that it's so different.

Ilhaam

You know that's so crazy because in Malaysia like someone will just knock on your door at like 2am like, "do you want to go and eat at this place? Or should we go to the City of Lights because tonight they have a festival". And it's at random times because in Malaysia students have cars so they're allowed to like leave their cars on campus. People just take you places so my sleep schedule was a bit funny because I'd have classes in the morning I'd go to them right and then I'd have an afternoon nap because it's so hot! They have a siesta right, the people actually go to sleep. It's called 'siesta' ... I'm right right?. Okay [laughter]. They'd have naps in the afternoon between 'asr' prayer and 'maghrib' prayer which is basically between four and six [pm].

Sagal

And you were hearing the prayers out loud innit like the sounds of the 'adthan' right?

Ilhaam

it was fantastic. I loved it!

Sagal

Did you not feel scared being outside at like past midnight?

Ilhaam

No, because people are out. I mean yeah literally everything's open like food places, shopping places close quite late and like when I'm talking about food I'm talking street food. These people have the markets open, like you can literally ... so in the night they shut down some of the streets to bring down tables and vendors come and they sell food and it's such a vibe!

Sagal

Mad! Such a different culture.

Ilhaam

Yeah and it's literally like you know there's a scene in 'Crazy Rich Asians' where they're sitting outside in like a market eating ... that's literally how it is!

Sagal

Mad! That sounds so fun to be like out at night because not gonna lie at nighttime is when it's just ... it just feels [like a] different vibe you know? [american accent]

Ilhaam

Yeah and when you went to Geneva it was really cold right?

Sagal

It was ... actually I'm not gonna lie when I got there it was September times and it was actually hot because that summer was one of the hot summers so yeah, at points it was hotter in Geneva than it was in London. Fam I got a different tan wallahi! You know the, the 'hijab tanline' ... it was peak ... very peak

Ilhaam

It was doing sunset!

Sagal

Fam it was doing 10 [shades] ... oh my days, the shade difference was crazy, but we move that was peak. But yeah, do you feel like the weather, like it being nice and sunny did it influence you or like help you to [feel good]. Because what I mean by that is when you're alone it's so easy to get anxious ... depression and all that kind of stuff - do you feel like the one that contributes to you feeling good and like everything been so vibrant and like, lively?

Ilhaam

Definitely, for sure. Definitely. Even though I think after October, it sort of became rainy season, but it would rain for like an hour. And then because it's so high it would dry up. It was a contributing factor but in like December, I don't know, all the people from Europe are sort of complaining about, "oh is this like seasonal depression withdrawal. What is this that I'm feeling?" [laughter]. Like that feeling was there, you know that December feeling in the UK, where you're like "Oh Sh**! Everything is dark".

Sagal

You mentioned other European students, how is it like interacting with them? Because for me, I remember feeling like these people ... I don't really like them that much. Like, a lot of them are well-off, and come from wealthy backgrounds. And so, like, for me, I was doing up code switching, I was speaking hella posh for no reason, just because [it was easier for them to understand me]

Ilhaam

I think for me, firstly, they were really shocked that I decided to live on campus and to share my room. They were like, "Oh why would you do that!?" Like, you know, yeah, cuz obviously, in the rooms, the shared rooms, there is no AC, right? And I already knew, like I was gonna be logical about this, if I'm going to travel around, there might not be ACs everywhere. So I need to, like get used to what the locals are used to. And I really tried to sort of integrate myself into the locals. And that's one thing where I sort of differed from the Europeans in a sense. So yeah, that was one of their questions - every time they see me, they're like, "Oh, my God, you're still living on campus!". And I'm like, "Yeah, and I get all my classes on time on a free school bus!" Even though I'm living on their campus. But I think the Europeans obviously they were well off very, very well off. And a lot of the students were like, mostly most of the students from the Netherlands and Germany. And they asked a lot of stupid questions. It was funny because it was them, basically untangling my identity. And I was really friendly about it because I was in a good mood, firstly. And secondly, because there was something about living in Malaysia, that didn't make sense to me as to why they asked me these questions. They're living in a predominantly Muslim country, although it's predominantly 60% Muslim, right. So I was just dumbfounded by the questions that they'd asked me like, about hijab and Islam. I mean, I was happy that they were asking rather than assuming, but it was hard to be a spokesperson, when you're in a country where, you know, the students at the university basically studied Islam in primary school, and in High School.

Sagal

That kind of [mentality annoys me]. Because my sister went to like the VSO [Voluntary Service Overseas] thing right. And so she went to Nepal and so she was [saying] the same thing. Like all these students are going to Asia, you're going to like ... they already have this image of like what Asia supposed to be like, right. And they come there and they ask the dumbest question. They're the most ignorant people ever. They just ... like you should have known already, like even stuff like respecting local customs. It's like "What is that? What does that mean?" These lots are just like [ignorant]. I think she was telling me like these people are drinking so much to the point where it was disrespectful, like to the locals. I feel like when Europeans got abroad, yeah, if it's not in Europe [and] if it's somewhere outside, they just either they're doing up savior complex, or they're doing up just ignorance times a billion.

Ilhaam

No, I totally agree. I agree. 100%. They were like ... so I think in the first week that I went to Malaysia, I sort of straight away got thrown into like the European group. That's that's what sort of happens, right? So they were kind of this trip to a place called Cameron Highlands, which are where, like, where the tea and the coffee farms are. So I was just like, yeah, you know, I don't really know anybody, and I'm willing to pay so let's go. And it was just the questions like, "oh, how do you wake up in the morning knowing that you're gonna wear a hee-jab and not wear like short shorts?" And I'm just looking at this girl like, I'm not getting [it] ... I don't understand your question. We're both wearing an item of clothing. Like, you feel comfortable in short shorts, and I feel comfortable in a hijab like so ... I mean, where is this conversation meant to go you know. And it was so funny because this same girl had a fetish for black men [laughter].

There was a time she said, "I just love how black people move it's so agile, it reminds me of monkeys" and I'm just like, I'm so confused. What am I meant to say. I just looked at [her] and the thing is this comment, I was there but the comment wasn't to me ... it was one of my other British friends. And I'm so happy that as much as the British education system has a long way to go, a lot of the Brits were more educated about race relations [and] religion, so a lot of times it was them basically answering you know, those stupid questions on my behalf because they just felt like why are these, you know, these other Europeans ... let me just invite people in general because they were white Europeans, white middle class European ... Why are they asking these silly questions when they could search it online or make comments like that the one I told you about that agile monkey. But yeah, ironically, she is still dating a black man from Senegal, actually.

Sagal

Black men are the weakest links ... Lord have mercy.

Ilhaam

Imagine!

Sagal

The thing is I'm not even surprised because I feel like when I was abroad I encountered people who had just the most dumbest opinions and just like they'd do things ... they would do things to me that they wouldn't to other people, like, what you expect from me is way more than what you expect from everyone else. Like, I don't have "maid" written on my head. I know I'm Black but that doesn't mean slave. Like it was ... it was long.

I wanted to ask you as well because I remember you mentioned like how, in terms of like, you spoke of mentality right now like this kind of idea of like superiority, like the fact that they're going there [and] that they have a sense of entitlement, and asking just dumb questions when my friend ... Google is free. Like you mentioned ... like the fact that in Malaysia, the stuff that they're studying is about like the UK, like in terms of the history, they're learning. Or that everything is like white or [focused on] basically the UK. Whiteness is centered in their education system, right. Yeah, how was your experience studying there because I think you mentioned in the beginning that you study global health right ...

Ilhaam

Yeah. So I studied global health. And a lot of my modules are centered around like, justice, right. So we do readings around ... We basically do readings from academics in different countries. So we explore academics for Latin America, Africa, Asia, and so on, right instead of the dominant, ethnocentric and North American centric ideologies that we usually learn in school. So the reason I decided to go so far away from home was to basically see a different form of education in a country that's well established right. So I was so surprised when I was just sitting in class and I think this an economics development class and the lecturer was basically like, "oh, and we only use London school of thought". And I was just like, um, what does that mean? I don't understand. What about [others]? So in my assignments and in my presentations, I tried as much as I could to find writings from Malaysian or Indonesian academics that I could use but every time I would the lecturer would be like, oh, okay, this is not what I wanted, I wanted you to use you know, the London School of thought or the Liverpool School or the Paris school of thought and I'm like ... umm we are in Malaysia right now. I'm trying to stay as relevant as I can to this topic. So that really like angered me and out of like, I think I took five modules in the first semester three of the five modules were so like, Euro centric in their teaching. And a lot of it has got to do with the lecturers also studying in these countries like doing their PhDs in like Scotland and America which is all great. Like that's a great thing. However, I just feel like they're disenfranchising their own knowledge and that for me was a very big disappointment like I found that really disappointing.

Sagal

That is so so mad. It's crazy to think that like you're in Asia, you're in Malaysia and you're ... still whiteness has [an effect]. It just basically kind of shows you how far-reaching the effects of [centring] whiteness and basically white supremacy is. How you're in an Asian context but yet white supremacy is still affecting a uni there.

Ilhaam

You know what's so mad yeah ... when there's like advertisements it's always a Russian lady, you know, blue eyes blond hair and I was so confused and I'd point it out for like my Malaysian friends and they'll be like, "Oh, yeah, you know, everybody just wants to be white skinned". Even if you go to like the pharmacy, which was the biggest problem for me, I couldn't even find a normal face cream. Like Sagal I kid you not, I would look for like Neutrogena or Nivia or like, you know, "normal brand" ... not normal brands rather international brands, let me just call them that ... and they'd all have a component of whitening. Like oh this is for whitening your skin and I'm just like ah I'm just trying to protect my skin.

Sagal

It's crazy how it's so normalised there.

Ilhaam

No literally! Literally I kid you not, I kid you not.

Sagal

Did you sense [this] within like the Malaysian students like that this was [normal] because you mentioned that basically what that students was saying, that people want to be white, but like that shows that critical thinking innit so did you feel like the Malaysian students at least themselves questioned why everything is about the UK or Europe?

Ilhaam

I think you know, when you live in the UK, you become more critical of it. And also when I lived in Kenya, we were quite critical of like eurocentrism in general. But in Malaysia, it was a whole different thing like Europe was sort of for them, from what I saw ... I can only speak from my experience, of course ... from what I saw Europe was like, you know, the point where everybody wants to get at. Like that's where you want to be, that's where you want to reach. And that yeah, that's, that's one of my other disappointments but yeah that was surprising they really ... not to say they worship ... but they did idolise anything European or anything British rather. And they wouldn't question it. So like, even when I went to the museum to sort of understand like their colonial history and you know, just to understand the country a little bit more, it was so crazy that the guide would ... obviously, Malaysia has history with Japan and when you look at like the Japanese conquest it's in a very negative light. But when they're talking about Britain, it's like look you know, Britain helps us they helped us restore peace and all of this and they helped us grow our economy. So the way they see Britain as a colonial power is very different to like, how we basically understand Britain in general. But for me it was just such a big surprise! They were like, "Oh, you know, there's pros and cons to colonialism" and I was like did I hear pros in that sentence?

Sagal

You wouldn't have expected that. But it's like, exactly, like you said, I feel like obviously we have a privilege of being in like, a uni in London where we can question things. Critical thinking is like, pushed, maybe in those countries it's not really pushed or students are kind of just taught kind of taught to follow. Because you know how they have so much respect ... in like non-white countries, they have so much respect for teachers innit, like teachers are like at the top

Ilhaam

Teachers are like gods, they're like god-tier.

Sagal

Like you don't question nothing. It's so strange, like I would expect that it would be [different] because I thought maybe before you went aboard you expected like, "Oh I'm gonna be learning something so different". So that is a shame honestly.

Ilhaam

And it was like, what disappointed me most was when you talk about controversial topics, like, you know, China, for example. Talking about China in Southeast Asia as a student is like right in your deathwish. [Laughter]. Simply because of the ASEAN [Association of Southeast Asian Nations]. ASEAN, which is basically like the EU, right, in Southeast Asia. ASEAN and China's relations ... like talking about the Uyghur Muslims, or anything that shapes China, in a negative light, is literally getting yourself into trouble. Like I had to cut out that part of one of my assignments, because my lecturer was like, you know, "this is a public university, this university is owned by the government, you cannot write stuff like that in your assignment". So I actually had to take out, and like when I presented it in one of my presentations, and I used, you know, China and the Uighur Muslims as one of my examples it was not taken [well] by the Chinese students. Oh my days! They started singing the national anthem, I swear to God

Sagal

Oh yeah! I remember when you told me that [laughter]

Ilhaam

I was dead, I was screaming! And my lecturer was like we need to respect everybody's like country. And I was like, "this isn't even a matter of country, it's just a matter of human rights". So yeah, that was mad that was crazy! [laughs]

Sagal

I remember when you told me that and thinking that doesn't make sense. How are you speaking about this and then randomly people start singing the national anthem!

Ilhaam

Literally, they stood up and the guy started speaking in Mandarin, and I was like "Oh, here we go again!" I've seen it happen. I was in another class and someone said that they were Taiwanese and the Chinese students were not having it. Like "there's no such thing as China, I mean Taiwan!" They were literally like, there's no such thing as Taiwan. But this is not from the Malaysian students. This is from international Chinese and Taiwanese students.

Sagal

Mad, that is actually so crazy. But I want to ask as well, was there a difference between ... well not a difference ... but was there some sort of like, barrier between the Malaysian like local students and like the European exchange students that came. Like in terms of mentality or like ... do you feel like there was, yeah, I don't know, how was the relation between those two groups?

Ilhaam

In general, I would say like, Malaysians are very, like, in general, they're quite like, accepting and open of everybody. So they're really nice. And yeah, they were really nice from my experience, right. However, it's difficult to integrate. When I'm talking when I say integrate, I sort of mean like to be part of societies if that makes sense, and that's because international students so the exchange students we're only there temporarily, whether it's a semester or a year, so they don't see a reason to sort of become really close friends or for you to join like a sporting society. But if you are like, as a student, if you're really open, and you're agile, and you're ready to sort of integrate, they are very accepting. But the relationship between the Malaysian students and the European students, I think it just dependent on the European student. Because some of them would like go out with them, and they'd have fun or whatever, like, but European students are usually there to also travel. So that also hindered relations, I guess. But other than that, like, from what I saw, I can only speak for what I saw. They seem to get along well.

Sagal

That's interesting, because when I was in Geneva, and even in Madrid as well I felt like there was a difference ... not a difference, but like there was like a barrier between the local students and the Year Abroad ones unless you made an obvious effort. Because really, it was because like, I think maybe it's different in Malaysia, like most people spoke English there, right?

Ilhaam

Yeah

Sagal

Because for us when I was in Geneva, people spoke English but not everyone. So it would be like all international students would be like in a group just speaking English and they didn't make an effort to like integrate with the rest of the students and same thing in Madrid. In Madrid no one speaks English ... zero English. And when they're speaking english I have no clue what they're saying. They could be saying, "Hi my name is [so-and-so] but all I'm hearing is [thick spanish accent].

Ilhaam

I had a spanish room mate at one point ... madness.

Sagal

Oh yeah I remember that story! That was crazy. But yeah I don't know for me, when I was abroad, honestly you had to go out of your way ... out of your way to speak with the local students because even stuff like group projects, there'd be nice, of course, but it was different. You get me?

Ilhaam

I understand exactly what you're saying. Because obviously, I get what you mean like in some of the classes the students were just like, oh, let's just do the project and that's it. But we I think for us, I don't know if you guys had this, but we had like a student body that was dedicated to the international students.

Sagal

Yeah, it's called for us it was called ESN - Erasmus student network.

Ilhaam

Yeah, I don't remember ... I think ours was called like the buddy scheme. But yeah, so those Malaysian students were very, like, very much involved with all the international students. I think that was part of their role as a student. I think it was just like a lucky dip, basically, and the department that you went to so like, I think my department, which was Social Sciences and Economics, that was like a very vibrant department. So there's always something going on so people always integrated and it was great,

Sagal

Calm and so okay, I want to change the topic a little bit. One of the questions I had for you was if you faced any discrimination in Malaysia or if you noticed ... because I remember you telling me like how you noticed how the ... I think it's when you actually first got there like you going past immigration or something I can't remember like exactly when it was but you told me like how you noticed how the African nationals were differently to you as like a British National.

Ilhaam

Yes, it was so crazy, because obviously, firstly, they will see you right before they hear you. So I think ... I don't remember the incident that I told you but ... I remember looking for an accommodation that I wanted to stay up for a bit, which was basically in the city center. And it was affordable, but I had to sign a contract. And so the landlords which was a Malaysian person just came in and I was looking at just going over the contract and he was like, "oh your British, okay!". He photocopied my passport. I'm looking at this contract, and it said no Africans. And I said, what?! I said, "hold on gimme my passport, gimme that passport man! Where are you going" [laughs]. I ain't gonna stay here! Are you dumb?! I literally asked him why and he was just like, "you know, you know, Africans are this Africans or that" and I'm just like, "Am I not African?" And he's like, no you're British! I said "Okay thank you very much, I'm leaving." And, I can't like I'm not even joking It's a very like common occurrence. It happens all the time. And it's so crazy because maybe if you booked through Airbnb or put it through Airbnb, right, but when you're taking the apartment, or you're booking out an apartment, so like, I can't imagine what international students go through, especially those that come from Africa. And like it's crazy because the African nationals are there are usually there to study or they're working in corporate jobs. They don't come for asylum seeking because you know the distance between African and Malaysia is quite far! So yeah, it was so crazy. It was mad. And it's just because I was British. It was just that label of being British right

Sagal

100% and I see that everywhere like even when I like ... we definitely have a privilege being British like the way we get treated differently even like not in terms of just like studying abroad but I remember when I was went to Saudi [Arabia] to visit my nan and she didn't have a passport, she doesn't have a possible yeah because that's a whole nother conversation because Saudi doesn't give passports to Saudi people fam. Anyway she's living on the edge I don't know what she's [doing] she could probably apply for a Somali passport but anyway she had convinced us because she's old ... we wanted to go to like Medina right and take a whole bus and whatever and she convinced me like "I'm old like take me with you blah blah" and we were basically like okay cool we'll take you have us. She didn't have a passport right and this guy came on to check the passports. He checked my brother's who was in front of us, he checked my brothers and he saw British and he was like "Britaniyya" and he didn't ask any of us. As soon as he saw the British ...the red passport he was like "yeah, it's cool yall can go through". So we were thinking the way that like the advantages and the privilege you have just [by] having a British passport ... different man it is so peak because it's literally just the paper - it doesn't mean anything. And more times like you're saying these people came to work in Malaysia so they're more economically better off than us.

Ilhaam

Literally, I was at the airport and it's so mad like this is one that really like sort of angers me there was obviously I had gone to British Airways and there was an Ethiopian airline craft that had like come in we all arrived at the same time. And it was so mad because everybody that came with Ethiopian Airlines had to go through a very secure immigration route. Whereas like for me like I'd literally just scan my passport I went through and they didn't even ask me about student visa until I went to them and I was like, "I'm staying here for longer than three months sp I've got my student visa like how do I go about that". They would have just let me walked into the country and it's it's ridiculous that these people had to go through this like like double checking basically because simply because they traveled with Ethiopian Airlines

Sagal

That is so mad wallahi. And the thing this is not something that's secret it's something that they're very aware of.

Ilhaam

Yeah, they know it's out in the open. They look at me and they're like "Oh yeah, you're British, yeah it's fine it's fine just come this way". They don't even blink an eyelid and I think that is a privilege but it also came with a lot of guilt because like you know, what's the difference between me and that lady. We look exactly the same the only difference to you right now is just that passport and it was really angering because it's hard to stay angry all the time. My voice is getting a bit shaky [laughs] but yeah that really pissed me off, I swear to God.

Sagal

Nah wallahi I feel you because the thing for me was I didn't have that like experience of being treated or having that privilege in a way [that was] attached to being British when I was away because obviously I traveled to Europe I didn't go [far] - I said in Europe because it was easier or whatever but like for me it was a thing of people not assuming that [I'm British] and assuming straight that I was something else and having to prove that I was British enough. I think I mentioned it on here but or ... I don't know if I have, I can't remember if I do or not ... but that time were like, I put my hand up in class and the teacher asked for like, he was doing comparisons he wanted to do like about a specific grammar thing in English and I put my hand up. He looked at me and he turned his whole body away from me. And I was like, in this moment you told me that you're not British and ... for me wallahi at the time I was very angry and it's like it was a common feeling for me having to like prove it or people [treating it] like a novelty - Oh, you're British? Oh! How can you be British? - and in Spain the guy saying "how can you be British and Muslim?"

Ilhaam

Exactly like you stupid goat! Watch a little bit of TV [laughter]. It's mad because they can't associate the two

Sagal

100% and if this is how you're treating me how are you treating the actual Muslims or actual black people in your country like cos I saw Black people and Muslims so ...

Ilhaam

It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. I think for me what made me even more disappointed was the fact that this is a Muslim country. I had made the assumption that you know, in Islam we don't promote racism, but it clearly exists, it exists.

Sagal

100% percent. And so in terms of the Islamic or like the Muslim aspect of the identity you didn't really face stuff from there, except people assuming that you weren't because of like your race, but ...

Ilhaam

Yeah, that was sort of it. And like, obviously, people just look at you, but it's one of those things that you really need to get over quite quickly if you're living in a country where there's not many people that look like you.

Sagal

Fam that is so hard, I still haven't gotten over it.

Ilhaam

Yeah you know it's so mad because one time I went with one of my friends and we went to Venice and we were being stared at. It was bad like literally you can't look anywhere else because all eyes are literally on you and also it was in the summer of 2018 I think ... yeah it was so I was getting really angry and like not really emotional but I was getting pissed off and I was talking to my friend I was just going on, like what can we do literally like these people are just looking at. There's nothing we can do and it's jarring because people are wearing sunglasses and they're turning your way. I'm like your sunglasses are blacked out you could just look at me discretely [laughter]. Literally! You're looking through my soul like it was ah ... and I think that day I think what my friend said was "listen yeah you're not going to remember this moment for the rest of your life so what you're going to do is enjoy yourself and you're never going to see these people again" and I sort of carriedthat with me because literally if you think about it ruin your day so you just have to ignore it walk with confidence and inshallah (God willing) everything's gonna be okay.

Sagal

Honestly like I don't think I've gotten over that completely because for me it was just like ... at least for you in Malaysia there was like there was Asians or like different types of people so it's not just like it's not like a white versus black thing. When I was in Madrid it was just like why are you guys staring at me like? Have you not seen a black person before in your life? Moreover, I've seen black people here so why are you staring at me so for me it was just jarring because I'm like there's absolutely no reason for you to stare at me ... like nothing. And it just ... for me it started to get to me so it was a thing of like I remember even like (maybe it's just a problem or a deeper issue I need to fix) because I remember when I was in sixth form I went on a trip to France and it was like a work experience thing. And I went to this small town called Rouen which is in the north of France, like a really small town. I was there for five days and I was staying in this like lady's house - this white lady's house. I think slyly she supported La Penne you know like that right wing [politician].

Ilhaam

She was probably like those feminist that are like why are you wearing a hijab.

Sagal

Yeah, but the thing is, she was nice because she went out her way to cook like halal meat and whatnot. But anyways when I was there for five days yeah, the first three/four days I literally like ... every time I would leave outside someone would stare at me to point I remember one time I was crossing the street and this guy was in his car and he slowed down his car and just like imagine that he put his head forward and he was just staring at me walking. And I'm thinking there's no reason for you to be this shocked, like we're in France my G, how many Muslims are here? And for me it was honestly so hard. I had to call home. This is me ... I was 17 I think at this point. I had call my mom and I was like "I don't like etc people are staring at me!" and she's like "don't worry you're going to come home soon" [laughter].

Ilhaam

I'm screaming! You said this man almost crushed his car!

Sagal

Fam! Why are you staring at me with that much intensity my G please! Please respect yourself. You're driving! Look at the road and keep driving. It was annoying. I think that's one of the biggest things like if you're an ethnic minority and you're going abroad ... the stares ... like you said you have to firm it but sometimes it's just so hard wallahi.

Ilhaam

It's difficult. It's hard - it's very very hard. I have to say like sometimes it does ... it would get to me too like it's one of them where you just have to talk to yourself like, "listen it's not me you're not doing anything wrong. It's just these people don't know". And it's just like there were like small microaggressions and I just explained it to my Malaysian friends right, like "this is what some Malaysian lady did to me or like you know etc" and they'll be like "oh my god, they're ignorant! Don't worry about it! I feel so bad" and they keep apologising. And I'm like I'm never going to tell you anything again [laughs]. Thank you for your sympathy but that's not what I wanted. But yeah obviously those small micro aggressions are there but I didn't feel like they were as intense as living day to day in this ... in this metropolitan city [london].

Sagal

That's good man. At least like ... okay calm because this is kind of negative ish, I mean, it's a reality but I wanted to move on. So this is the last question I had for you or actually the second last question I had for you. But obviously you know if you follow Ilhaam on Instagram you can see you know, vibrant colours, vibrant places you know, like a lot of color, very beautiful. But your pictures are banging! You've been to so many cool places. I wanted to ask you, maybe actually [could you] list a couple places you went to when you were in Malaysia or like when you went abroad and like how did you find it [to go] solo traveling. Because there's solo traveling in Europe which is different and then there's solo traveling in Asia and like how is that like because it looked amazing on Instagram!

Ilhaam

I traveled to a lot of places like I went to all the provinces in Malaysia except for the ones in Borneo. I went to Singapore, Vietnam, Laos, like the South of Thailand.

Sagal

I still can't believe you went to Vietnam!

Ilhaam

So the interesting thing about Vietnam because Vietnam for me is always very unexpected. So like before as well like my other European friends sort of invited me to go to like Hong Kong and other places but I just in myself I didn't feel like I wanted to travel with anybody else. I just wanted to go by myself. And the night before we basically got like fright night tickets, free fright night tickets so a group of us went and I come back and I'm like, "Okay, well, I'm gonna book my flight now". And I just looked it up. I remember like ranting on my private Insta story and you were like, "Oh, it's fine. You're gonna be alright, don't worry about it". [Laughter]. And I was like "Oh my days what have I done! No one's gonna know I haven't told anyone". Literally, because of the time difference I was unable to tell my family what's going on right? So I messaged them but they're not WhatsApp people they'll never reply. It was literally like ... and it's so mad because I read a couple of blogs, like on my way to the airport and a lot of them was so negative like "oh my god, Vietnam is dangerous you know as a woman" you know, and it was all experiences of white women. My bad! [Laughs]. I read it and I sort of internalised it and I was like okay, this is it like, I don't know where this sort of fear came from because I'm not a very fearful person. But yeah, I was so scared I was literally so scared. I was on that flight. My phone wasn't charged [laughs]. My phone is never charged, yeah, but on the day that it needed to be charged!

Sagal

You're risking it all man!

Ilhaam

Literally and the plugs are different there and I didn't check

Sagal

That's step one of going abroad [laughs].

Ilhaam

Guys make sure all your devices are charged! So I had to charge my phone through my laptop right. And I obviously landed and I was like, "Okay, what to do next?" and no one speaks English. I literally set myself up for failure but I had booked the Airbnb beforehand so I knew where I was going. So I just spoke to one of the tour ladies and she was trying to sell me like a two week holiday in a hotel and I was like "no lady I'm just trying to get to like the city center." That's all I want. But um, once I got on that bus to the city center, I sort of like was thinking like how stupid of me like how ignorant of me to you know, internalise the words of a stranger from the internet who's telling me that this place is scary like you know people get killed. Obviously people get killed everywhere. But yeah, it was just ... in that moment, I was just like, that's very stupid of me.

Sagal

That's a big lesson you know ... to not internalise the fears of other people.

Ilhaam

Yeah, literally and it's so crazy because obviously there are like a few black vloggers that went to Vietnam but I only found it out while I was there. So I was just reading through where they went, how their experiences were, and their experiences were overall like quite positive, right. So I was just dumbfounded by the fact that there was people that wrote negative comments. Yeah, I was just dumbfounded by that.

Sagal

But you know sometimes in some places they actually like they have a strong dislike for white people because of the past. So maybe her [experience was because of that].

Ilhaam

That is Vietnam! They hate the French.

Sagal

And I understand it, like the whole madness that they did to Vietnam

Ilhaam

Yeah, and they also did strongly dislike the Chinese. But Vietnam was great, [it] was fantastic. And I think it's also like Muslim friendly. So when people ask like [how is it like], you know, and people don't stare out you there! I was quite surprised like know one is looking at me, no-one really cares.

Sagal

That sounds like my perfect holiday destination! [Laughter]

Ilhaam

It was really great. I loved it. I loved it, I was there for a week. And I basically stayed in like an Airbnb, I went on a cruise.

Sagal

Mad! I remember you telling me and I was like "mad like, you have the gift of the gab, you can just talk your way into [amazing] experiences".

Ilhaam

Literally! You know, basically [on] one of the nights I found out that there's like a cruise and it's like, two days and one night and you sleep on a boat in like a place called Halong Bay, which is a UNESCO World Heritage Site, which is like basically rocks in the sea, that's all I can describe but it's beautiful, I think everybody should go. So I was walking around, and I was looking for like cheap deals, right? And so the whole day I was sort of eyeing and seeing "Okay, this place is $80 this place is $100" but I'm trying to get cheap, like cheap cheap, so I saw a place where it was $41 and I was like, "hey, I've caught a bargain!" It's my time to shine, but then I walked in and cuz you know they clocked that I was British, they tried to overcharge me. And I was like, "no way José!" Bye I'm going to find somewhere else. But anyway, after my many, many walks later, I found a place and I saw it and I was just speaking to the lady. And I was like, "how cheap can I get it for and long story short, I got it for $65 guys! $65 which is mad because she showed me the receipts of other people and honestly guys always bargain always negotiate prices because people always pay different prices for stuff.

Sagal

100% and I feel like maybe the UK is the only country where there's ... well not only the UK actually ... but in what it's called the Global South, the way you can haggle is just beautiful. We love to see it because you can get something for two completely different prices. You know listen, when I went to Morocco with my family I remember we went to [the market] I wanted to buy some traditional like long-dress things, yeah. And my mum was speaking to the guy in Arabic, yeah. And she loves deals too much like she's trying to go low, she keeps trying to go lower and lower. And they guys like "Listen, because you're speaking arabic I'm giving it you for a cheaper price already ... if you had spoken to me in English or French, I would have given you three times the price I'm giving you!"

Ilhaam

You know you learn so much from that sort of negotiating process. And you also form like a little bond and a friendship with them. You're like "you're my friend, you can get it cheaper for me I know you can!" But that cruise was fantastic. I wish I went with friends but other than that I did enjoy myself throughly guys. And there was halal food, because the chef was Indian. And he was Muslim as well so I got halal food so I was soo happy about that. But I think the best thing about solo travel is that you meet people that are much older than you and because you don't know them, you can basically talk about all your worries because you're never going to see them again. Not to say I splurted out my whole life story - that did not happen! But just talking about like careers and stuff and these people were quite accomplished. And it was just one thing that struck me was the fact that you know your worries in your 20s are gonna follow you on to your 40s and your 60s. Like we always pursue to have more so they were like yeah, just live in the moment. And I think that's one thing that I learned from my solo travels and until now like when I told my mom "oh yeah you know when I went to Vietnam I went by myself" she does not believe me!

Sagal

[Laughs] You didn't even tell her! That is crazy! Did you feel like if you had told her before she would have told you no?

Ilhaam

Yeah, for sure for sure. Like it's so mad because like when I sent her photos while I was there she was like "oh why are you sitting at the edge of a boat you're gonna fall off!" [Laughter]. It was never like "daughter that is such a lovely photo" It was never that so I already knew. So I told her I was going but I didn't tell her if I was going with people she just assumed and I keep telling her no that I went by myself but she refuses to believe me and that makes our relationship much stronger! [Laughs]

Sagal

Okay and in terms of just like solo travel in general because like I remember when I was in Geneva I decided to go like Berlin for a couple days yeah, and just the experience of traveling like completely by yourself ... like I'm not talking about, because obviously when you went to Malaysia you were by yourself, but you were going to uni and there was a support there and blah blah like the uni was there ... but like solo travel where it's completely you on your one's, you have your own itinerary, doing everything. I feel like that's an experience everyone should have. Like everyone should do that once in their life or something, just because, for me, it was like, honestly, for me, it was like a moment of growth. Being able to like go from obviously your by yourself already, but kind of like traveling completely by yourself, planning your own itinerary. Because when you travel with friends and stuff, it's nice but sometimes you have to like do things that you don't really enjoy doing just because your friends enjoy doing it. And it's calm because maybe you can discover new like hobbies and whatnot. But when you're by yourself like it'd be for example I'd write my itinerary down yeah, and I'll be walking and I'll be like "Oh! What a ... random vegan ice cream shop! I'm going to go inside there". I'll see like a bookshop, I'll go inside there and it's like, I don't know. Honestly solo travel is like ... it's a highlight for me and I know when I was looking at your [instagram] stories, it looked incredible. Listen, let me ... I have to you know, gas you up a little bit yeah! Most people get a driving license yeah, my girl got a DIVING license! [Laughter]. I was so proud man!!

Ilhaam

Can I honestly say yeah, Sagal you inspired me to do the solo trip because I was in two minds about it. And when you went to Berlin and I was like, You know what? Bun it, let me just go! So yeah, and about the diving ... so when I went to Malaysia, I went to an island, right? And some of my friends from Belgium were like, "yeah, you know, you just get this diving license!". And I'm like, "what the hell am I gonna do with a diving license enlightened me. Huh, what am I gonna do it?" But and it's such a posh thing to say like "I've got a diving license" - it just sounds like you know, I ride a horse or something.

Sagal

Really bougie innit!

Ilhaam

Yeah literally bougie! I tried diving, I tried it out and I was like, "Oh, I kind of like this!" There's something about the fact that you're underwater. You've got a limited oxygen tank, you have to sort of work with your body to make sure you're floating right. You can't hear anybody. It's just you, the ocean and the fish and like sharks and stuff, whatever. And there's just something about that like it's just ... I just kept on saying 'alhamdulilah' [praise be to God], like this creation underwater that we barely get to see with our eyes like, yeah, it was a privilege so that's why I got the diving license. And I hope to get the master one!

Sagal

Fam keep going man cuz that's, that's incredible. Honestly, like ... the good thing is like when you're going abroad, you get to experience things that you can't experience in the UK. You think you can do a diving license in the UK? You probably could but where you going to go? To the Thames for you to see eels and stuff?

Ilhaam

I'm screaming, eels in the Thames you know!

Sagal

The water would be so dirty.

Ilhaam

I think in Southeast Asia it's the cheapest place to get in the world, right. So I did my research as well. So I also had my instructor, the first instructor I had, I had him again to get the proper license, so we got a really good deal. But it's really rigorous, but it's so worth it. And I was always be like, as a Muslim it's Sunnah [tradition/encouraged] to learn how to swim. So if you guys ever get opportunity, you should definitely do it.

Sagal

Honestly it sounds incredible. But I wanted to ask as well, like so you experienced all that stuff and like you got to go to these random places and like solo travel and just experience life in a completely different country? How was it like coming back home? Did you struggle to adapt? I know we've spoken about this a lot, but did you struggle to adapt?

Ilhaam

Yeah [laughs]. I think it just comes back to coming from a big household, right. I come from a big household, where there's not much space to sort of have your own space, if that makes sense. I think that might have [affected it] but coming back was difficult because it was abrupt. And I think for me, it was ... it sort of mirrored experiences that I've had before like abrupt endings so that's what made it a little bit more difficult because it was just like, "oh you've got to go, you've got no choice you actually have to leave". So there was that and then coming home to a big family when I'm sort of used to not being ... I mean I was around people right, but that was by choice so on that day if I locked my room, no one's coming in, right. But in my house, you have no choice you're going to socialise by force [laughs].

Sagal

Privacy does not exist!

Ilhaam

Privacy what's that!

Sagal

We don't know it!

Ilhaam

And you know what so mad like, education wise in Malaysia, I would sort of like, absorb things so much quicker. And like write an essay, like write a fantastic essay on one night, but I can't do that here. Like I have to spend time doing things because I'm around so many people. But on to the point of coming back it was so hard I think adopting was so difficult for me. I went into like a slump like my sleeping pattern was so wrong. I was waking up at about like 4am or like 3am and like sleeping at like 2pm so I literally wouldn't see anybody [laughs]

Sagal

Was that because of the time difference?

Ilhaam

Yeah the time difference was so so bad. So yeah that really messed up my sleeping pattern. But what helped me sort of find a rhythm and find my feet when I came back was getting a job, even though we're in a pandemic, but that sort of helped me adjust. Yeah, so it helped me adjust to like the timezone and yeah, just helped me settle down a little bit more. But coming back was so difficult I think especially because like you're from a big household too. Coming from a big family it's really difficult especially when you've come from like being able to control your environment having a lot of control ... having 'the' control basically it was really difficult and then it was a lockdown as well so coming from going out every day, going out anytime, deciding today I'm going to go to Singapore ... to coming home.

Sagal

It's such a massive shift! It's just such a big change. I remember for me it was like ... I've already discussed this but like it was so hard for me as well because it's like fam I'm going from living by myself like exactty what you said about control. Like having control about like everything surrounding [you] ... what you want to eat, what you want to do, like what time you have to get up, like everything completely [your choice]. You are controlling everything and then going to like now we're all inside, no one can leave plus people have their own habits. Even stuff like you know like people's cleaning habits used to annoy me so much in the beginning cos I'm [the type to] wash a plate ... I'll make food and then I'll wash the plates straight away and put it away because I had a shared kitchen [abroad] so I couldn't leave any mess right and if I did people would be like hella passive aggressive and just like put the plate on the side and like make a note or something. So I literally couldn't do any of that and even stuff like sorting rubbish. Like they're so extra in Geneva - so I had gone from that and then coming home it's like people will like "oh yeah I'll do another time I'll come back to later" it's like no one comes back to it [laughs]. People's bad habits basically just started to annoy me. I noticed them way more when I got back because I had been away for a long time.

Ilhaam

Yeah no I 100% agree with me, like 100% agree with that point. I don't really clock it before. Before it was just like you know yeah you know things will sort of sort itself out. Not to say we're control freaks at all but the level of normality we got used to [laughs]. Listen, we just got used to looking after ourselves right? So it was very difficult to incorporate everybody else like you're incorporating at least like nine people [laughs]. Because you know when you sort of like ... Sagal when you wake up when you were living in Madrid or in Geneva, you wake up and you know what you're doing for that day. And no one else is sort of good to interrupt that and that's exactly how it was for me in Malaysia what coming back home to the UK, waking up I have to consider who's going to work at this time? Who's going out? Who needs me to do what like what do I need someone else to do? Like, yeah, and that for me was very difficult because now I have to depend not because I want to depend because there's no other way to live in a household. You kind of have to depend on people. And it's like even yeah cleaning habits again, like all of ... everything, everything literally and even where I sort of put my clothes even little simple things like that like where I put my socks etc.

Sagal

Honestly, it sounds dumb but it's true because like when I was in my ... let's say my dorm yeah, I had everything in a specific location. Like I had everything like boom socks here, boom [this goes here] ... everything was sorted out in a different location so now it's like when people come into my room, and I share a room right, so if my sister comes and moves something in my room I get frustrated because I'm like, "that's not where it's supposed to be!" [laughs]. Now I've obviously come out of that because you can't be doing that now like, you know, it's been a year at least. It's literally been a year. I think I came back in ... I mean I came back in March, you came back before me right?

Ilhaam

Yeah, I came back in March too. I think I came back maybe a week before you

Sagal

Yeah, I remember I came back like the day before my birthday because I was like I'm not spending my birthday alone! [Laughter]. It was ... by that time Madrid was in lockdown innit so I was like I'm not [gonna be] by myself alone just with my landlady.

Ilhaam

I think yeah for me like coming back as well ... Kuala Lumpur went into lockdown way before like the UK so all the local students went home and the international students that lived out either went home or they stayed but I think for me that impacted me a lot. Kuala lumper lockdown earlier like than the UK right so for me when all my local friends went home because I was there for a second semester right and I don't really know there international students that well because I've integrated so much with like the local students and the other Europeans that decided to stay and the Japanese and you know, so as much as we were a support system for each other It was inevitable that everybody was gonna go so I was like listen, I will leave before everybody leaves me! [Laughter]

But yeah, I don't know other people's experiences before us like maybe a year before us how they felt coming back. But I'm sure like you were meant to come back in like July

Sagal

Yeah, exactly. And I came back in March so for me it felt like it was cut short because I wanted to like ... I think difference between me and you is also because I was learning a language and you were speaking English so for me it was more like the education part was a lot more for me. Like education was first and then was like experiences. Whereas maybe for you it was like education yeah ... but also the experiences and whatnot. So for me it was like "oh damn I've missed out on like improving my Spanish" that's how it felt because especially because I was stressed because I like when I come back in final year I'll be put together with all the people from like [my course] who've been doing Spanish since they were like I don't know ... however long and people whose parents are Spanish so for me it was like a stressful thing. I've gotten used to it but yeah ...

Ilhaam

Nah but like mashallah [~well done] because you were learning a whole language like [claps]. Because can I say I attempted to learn malay but it was always useless because every time I'd say like hello in their language, they would just speak to me in English. And that was my attempt over. I even had like a village family. Like, like the mother of my village family she never spoke English she just spoke Malay. Yeah, every time I speak Malay she's like "stop, stop just speak English we'll just figure out a way to communicate" [laughs]. To clarify I can't speak malay I can just say hi and bye right now. Like, 'what's your name?', 'What's the age?' That's it. Obviously, Sagal is the master of languages.

Sagal

Nah don't do that! Don't do that.

Ilhaam

Just take the title!

Sagal

I'm sorry I can't take the title! [laughter]

Ilhaam

Like for me, like yeah, I would say education and experiences were sort of level. It wasn't like, I think a little bit more experiences. You know, I wanted to live my best life.

Sagal

Come on!

Ilhaam

I was scared of graduating. That's the reason I went abroad! [Laughter]. But it is the best experience and I know it's difficult as like a Muslim woman and a black woman, to firstly convince yourself that, you know, I'm gonna have a good time doing this, you know. But secondly it's just like, thinking about what other people would say. If, obviously, if you're that kind of person who does think about what other people would say, like how to sort of block that out of your mind, just go for it. But I would always like encourage everybody I meet like even my younger siblings, I'm like, do it! You've got nothing to lose literally nothing!

Sagal

Same! I'm trying to convince people. My little sister is on it now, she wants to go ... I think she wants to go Canada.

Ilhaam

Listen, just get out of this England for a bit. And it's so mad because I think I told you like, on the plane, I met the ambassador of Denmark's wife. Just imagine, it was nuts ... I never expected it! It just sort of happened and she was sitting next to me on the plane!

Sagal

It's crazy you meet like such random people when you're abroad.

Ilhaam

Yeah, literally. And it sort of gives you like, confidence. And I don't know like do you feel like there's been a difference between you in second year and you in like final year.

Sagal

Oh 100%, I feel like two different people. Honestly but you know maybe people are tired of hearing it, like [american accent] "the year abroad is so like, you know, I just developed so much, there was so personal growth during that year" but for real straight up wallahi I really feel like I grew so much during that time. Not just from it but when I came back as well. And like you know, like the whole nonsense that happened for me when I was abroad, which I'm never gonna talk about [laughs]

Ilhaam

We aint gonna talk about that!

Sagal

And like that whole experience taught me so much like so much stuff about boundaries about like, the importance of sincerity. About like being true to myself, just like not changing and all those lessons I learned, I don't think I would have been able to learn that if I was still in the UK. Yeah. And I mean what about for you. Do you feel like you grew during that time you were away?

Ilhaam

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. For sure. I think I grew more emotional intelligence. l think that was a big thing. I think that was a difficult one because it was just difficult for me innit because I never really thought about emotions, like how does emotions affect myself, how does it affect other people. Like, you know how to be sensitive around other people, mental health etc. As much as I knew about it, I studied global health so obviously, I've done like, a module on it but it still didn't make sense. If you're not in it, you wouldn't understand it kind of thing. So I think yeah, I sort of developed emotional intelligence during that time. And there's skills I swear to you that you will never learn unless you're out of your comfort zone.

Sagal

100% That's the one thing I wouldn't recommend like about the Year Abroad is like you are completely out of your comfort zone. And this is a good thing. It's an amazing thing because it allows you to grow and and also to do things that you would never have ... that you would have limited yourself from doing before. Because for me, it's always always a thing of, and even still now sometimes I'm like, "Oh, I can't apply for this position because they're not gonna accept me because I'm me ... or because I'm Muslim they're not gonna accept me" or just ideas that I'm having. And I'm like actually when I want abroad it was like, fam if people don't want to accept you for something that shouldn't stop you from applying anyway. If people don't like you because of your religion or your race, that's on them, that's not on you, you should still try and get that or try and experience it. You shouldn't stop yourself. That's the one big thing. Don't stop yourself from experiencing things because of fear, because of, you know, perceived ideas of people's discrimination. Don't do that - go forward with what you want to do. If I had ... because I told you and I think I mentioned it in the first episode and just in general like, before going abroad, I had read so many bad stories and so many negative things. If I had let that stop me, I would never have been able to, like [do things] and grow like honestly, and likewise for you. If you had let all those just negative thoughts and whatnot stop you from going ... fam no diving license! That wouldn't exist.

Ilhaam

Listen! Like my first semester of my year abroad, I think [it was] unmatched like, I can't even express how amazing it was. I wouldn't say that for my second semester because of my likkle incident which we aint gonna talk about! [Laughs] That incident taught me so much about negotiating diplomacy, how to navigate yourself in a place or when you're at a position of power. It just taught me so much about that. And I don't think I would have ever learned that any other way. As much as that was ... it was just a complicated situation. But it taught me a lot about like, adapting diplmacy, how to work around people with power. And yeah.

Sagal

That's a lovely note to end the podcast on. Thank you so much for joining me, man. I honestly really appreciate you joining us today. So I'm gonna let you go and study but thank you so much!

Ilhaam

Listen this one was a long time coming

Sagal

100%

Ilhaam

Yes and I enjoy all your podcasts and yeah, thank you for having me!

Sagal

You're welcome. Hopefully I want to get you again soon inshallah, God willing!

Ilhaam

We can maybe dive into some of these topics deeper.

Sagal

Yes. Yeah. Thank you again, man. I'm gonna stop here. But thank you, everyone for listening. Peace!!