Brazil: Rio Carnival, City of God and traveling as a Black British man.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Episode 6: In this episode, I am joined by Patrick who is part of Over The Bridge podcast. We discuss his time abroad in Brazil and touch on working in Rio de Janeiro, race and class dynamics, making friends, language learning, carnival, belonging and being a minority group in Brazil.

The beautiful Selaron Steps in Rio de Janeiro

Sagal

Hi guys, welcome back to Memnoire - a podcast all about the experiences of black people who go abroad. In this episode, I'm joined by Patrick, please introduce yourself, what you studied, what you're currently doing and where you went on your Year Abroad.

Patrick

Hey guys, this is Patrick. And yeah, at university I studied Spanish and Portuguese literature. And then for my year abroad, I spent eight months in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, and three months in Havana. But yeah, it was mostly the ... sort of Brazil leg of my experience that I can talk for days about to be fair. And what do I do now? I am currently fun-employed. So I left my last job last week, actually. I was working as a project manager for an advertising company and I think it was time to call it quits. It had been two years, most of which has actually been during lockdown, which has been weird. So I spent most of the time at that job just in my office in my house. But yeah, I left that job. And I'm just sort of taking some time out to decide what's next. So yeah, fun-employed currently. Hopefully not for too long.

Sagal

Nah that sounds good. Calm [so] I've obviously prepared some questions and I'm just gonna jump into the first one. So number one - why did you choose Brazil?

Patrick

Why did I choose Brazil? I think ever since I was about 12 years old I was very much interested in Brazil as a country, its culture. I think it all started genuinely, it all started when I watched City of God. I was about 12 years old. I was on the plane coming home from the Caribbean. I had gone with my family and I shouldn't have been watching that film at 12 years old. At least. I was a bit like, hopefully, my mom doesn't lean over and see what I'm watching because it is quite a ... it's quite a full on film. But um, I think what I loved [about it] because whenever I tell people it's because of City of God that I'm really interested in Brazil, they're like what, like all the violence and all this stuff? I'm like, No it's not so much that. I think, for me, what really struck me was how black Brazil was. And obviously I knew that ... when I say obviously, I did know that Brazil had a black population just from knowing about like their footballers and stuff like that but I think what struck me about that film was how black it was, and also how beautiful the Brazilian Portuguese language is, as well.

And I think ever since that moment, I was always really interested in Brazilian culture. Through the film, I got into like the music as well. And I got into other Brazilian films. And it just kind of went from there. But I didn't study Portuguese until I started university. So at school, I studied French first and then I started Spanish when I was about 13. And I was always good at both languages. So I think like when it came time to deciding what to do at uni, I think I always kind of knew that I was going to do languages. And then when I was doing my UCAS application and everything I was looking into the courses, and I saw that like a few of the universities that I chosen, you could take Portuguese so I was like yeah, let's let's do it. So I think Brazil has always been some something that I've been really, really connected to. I think ever since I was about, like I said, about 12 years old. I mean technically even before that, because like I said because of the football. I just yeah ... I loved the Brazilian footballers. Ronaldo was one of my early heroes as a kid and then Ronaldinho, obviously. And so yeah, I think that's pretty much how it all panned out.

Sagal

That's amazing. I mean, I feel like I have something similar with Spanish because I didn't do Spanish. I mean, I didn't really pick up the GCSE or A-level. And then when I got to uni I was like oh, I'm just doing French let me add Spanish to it. And for me, it's always been like, a language or culture that I've always been interested in. But for some reason, I felt like I couldn't pick it. I can't explain why but I don't ... I felt like I wasn't allowed to, to like Spanish. I don't [know]. I can't really explain it to be honest. But, like the reason why I guess I fell in love with Spanish is really the football culture. Like I used to be obsessed with David Villa, I used to be obsessed with the national team. Yeah, that's really cool, though. And when you were in Brazil, what were you doing? Was it like a study type thing or working?

Patrick

Yes. So boy, Brazil, right. So my uni they're very .... I went to Cambridge and like at the time, they were very relaxed about what you do. They just said like, you can work or you can study and you can do anything you want as long as it's legal and moral. So I was like, okay, like, you know blank check. And the thing is for my year abroad, I remember thinking, like, if I stay in Europe, I'll have access to the Erasmus scheme and the funding that comes with that. And then a lot of my friends will go into like Spain and Portugal, but I was like, You know what, I actually have a year to just travel, I'm gonna go as far as I can. And just go somewhere as out there as possible. So that's why I mean, I think I was always going to go to Brazil. But that's also why I chose to go to Havana, because I wanted to do both Spanish and Portuguese in my final year. So yeah, that's why I ended up going to Havana as well.

But yeah, so what did I end up doing? So initially, through a friend, I was going to do an internship at a newspaper. What's it called, again? I think it was called Metro newspaper and it might even be owned by the same company that owns the Metro in the UK. But it was like their free daily newspaper, and I was just gonna do an internship there. So I got there. And it was a bit rubbish, to be honest. Like, they didn't really have much faith for me, for whatever reason. So they literally just had me like, doing really basic stuff. I spent most of my time just like surfing on Facebook. So I remember one [day] ... I was there for maybe about two weeks and then on the Friday, I was like, Yeah, okay, guys you know, after a really boring day, I was like, yeah, I'll see you on Monday. And I just never went back.

And, yeah, so by this point, I'd made like quite a few friends. And I had like a few connections and stuff like that. And somebody introduced me to this guy that worked out for Time Out Magazine, Rio de Janeiro. This really cool guy called Doug Gray. And he was British. And he moved out to Brazil as well. And yeah, we just had a very, it wasn't even an interview, really, we just had like, casual chat in this cafe in Flamengo, Rio. And yeah, I just ended up interning with them. And it was so much better. Like, they had me like doing some real stuff like covering stuff, new venues, going to like hotel launches, and stuff like that, and doing write-ups. And I even went to Rio Carnival as their official press photographer as well. So I was like, literally, I had my press accreditation and everything. I was right on the strip. I had my press vest as well. And that was probably one of the best experiences of my life. Because during Carnival, it's like a four day thing. And like you just don't really, like you don't have a full night's sleep. Because literally there's something going on at every time during the day. So you have tactical naps. And so what I was doing was going to like the street parties during the day and then at nighttime, you go to like the ... like that's when they have the big parade where different samba schools compete against each other to have the best carnival show. And yes, at night, that's when I had to work. So I didn't really sleep and it was just like, I remember on the final night, I was so tired, like I was at a point of like delirium from being so tired.

But like, it was just the most surreal thing ever. Like I was like, wow like I'm actually like, right here on the strip like there's people in costumes like their feathers are brushing me in my face like and just like the sound from the crowd as well. Yeah it was an amazing experience at the Sambadrome. I'd actually got to go back there as a carnival participant a few years later as well. That's when I actually moved to Brazil. But yeah, the sound from that crowd was yeah, it's incredible. It's incredible. I think there's like, because it's like a long stadium ... the seating follows this long street and I think it's about a mile long. So it's about 100,000 people. So there's a lot of sound. It's like being at a massive football match. But instead everyone's there for Carnival.

Sagal

That sounds amazing!

Patrick

Yeah, yeah, it was one of the best experiences I think in my life. I almost ... not that I forgot about it but like now that I'm talking about it I'm just remembering like, yeah, how crazy it was. So yeah, I did that. The internship was unpaid, which was fair enough, because like it was, yeah, it was worth more than being paid, I think. So on the side of that, I worked for an English language school that did like residential courses for people that needed English for their jobs. And that setup was really nice as well as so it's like every maybe two or three times a month we'd go away for like five days and this like ranch in the mountains in Rio State. So like outside of the city. And yeah, it was like five star accommodation, 3 three course meals every day. And I was just getting to teach English. I think it's funny. I think that's like, before I moved to Brazil, my accent was a bit different. Like, I think it was a bit more East London and then having lived abroad and having to like teach people that, obviously English isn't their first language, I had to like, kind of neutralize my accent a bit. But yeah, so I was doing that. And that was, again, like a really, really cool experience as well, because I was teaching people that were like, much older than me, but they were like, "Teacher, teacher, can you help me with this?" I'm just like 21 like, speaking with authority and stuff like that. So yeah, that's what I did to earn money. And then the internship was with Time Out Magazine.

Sugarloaf Mountain at sunset

Sagal

Okay, I mean, that sounds like an amazing opportunity as well, just like ... somethings just happen by luck as well. Like, you never expected it. I'm sure before you went to Brazil, you didn't expect to land that opportunity and whatnot.

Patrick

Listen, listen, like, I remember trying to plan for my year abroad. And literally every single plan that I made, was just scattered but like, why I ended up doing was even better. And, yeah, it was just a funny thing. Because even in Cuba, like I had loads of plans with Cuba as well. And so when I was ... up until the end of uni I played the violin. So what I wanted to do in Cuba was studying music. I planned to study at this music conservatory, in Santiago, in Cuba. But for one reason or another, I didn't get to do that. The conservatory was closed by the time I got there for the summer, but I ended up studying music with this musician in Havana, because I actually wanted to stay in Havana rather than going to Santiago. So long story short, like things just fell into place. So like when people ask me like, "Oh, how did you pay me a year abroad" and stuff like that like, I feel like I'm doing a disservice, because I'm literally like, everything I planned it didn't go to plan, but it still worked out better.

Sagal

I guess one of the other questions, one of the questions I had for you was kind of like, what were some of your preconceptions or ideas you had of Brazil before going and did any of them change?

Patrick

So by the time I got to Brazil, I had been like, sort of obsessed with the place for about nine years. So I knew a fair bit about the country. I had gone past that phase of like, rose tinted spectacles thinking it's like just paradise. And I mean, to be fair, my first like experience of, you know, Brazil, and its culture, like I said, was City Of God. And that is a very complicated film. You know, you see a lot of Rio's beauty in the film, but also a lot of it's social issues. And, you know, granted the film is set, for anybody that hasn't seen it, the film is set in the 60s and 70s. But a lot of what the film deals with is very, very relevant to its present.

So, yeah, I feel like from the beginning, like I had a very kind of ... I guess, like a realistic impression of Brazil's good and bad parts. But also, I would say, like, my experience of Brazil, or my knowledge of it was quite Rio-centric. And Brazil is like a vast country. And you know, it's regions are almost like different countries. And people tend to have like a very Rio-centric image of Brazil anyway. So I guess, like I was, I was guilty of that. But it's difficult to kind of have a board experience unless you really like, engage, and like know where to look kind of thing. Like, there's a lot of like, amazing writers that come out of Brazil and from different regions as well. And I think that's where I started to get more of an impression on like, the differences like in the regions. So you have like, the Northeast of Brazil, which like there's Bahia, which is almost like its own kind of bit within the Northeast of Brazil which is like the most African part of Brazil. But then the rest of the Northeast, there is like, a whole kind of culture to itself, which is kind of like they have a geographical feature in the Northeast called the sertão, which is like the desert basically, or it's like a semi arid region. And that is sort of characterized, it's almost like the old west in the United States in terms of like cowboys and outlaws and like it is funny, like the US and Brazil have sort of quite similar ish, sort of folklores and, and I guess they are kind of similar in that they're sort of like modern countries that kind of developed a lot over the course of the 20th century and then like in the 19th century, they have kind of ... I could go off on a tangent.

Sagal

It's so interesting honestly!

Patrick

But yeah, so my impressions of brazil when I got there. I remember thinking like, it was exactly how I imagined it would be better. Not to say that it was a paradise because it definitely isn't. Rio is, like I said, a very, very complicated place. But there weren't many things that shocked me, there was just a lot of like, kind of pleasant confirmations of what I thought it would be like. And I think that's partly why maybe about four or five months into my time there, I just remember walking down the street one day, and like, I just had that this overwhelming sense of peace. And I was like, I can definitely live here. Like, because I didn't want to be idealistic away. And just like, I was very, very kind of, like cautious about getting sucked in and whatever else. Because it's very easy to do that. It's like very easy to be like, you know, "it's such a amazing place, and it's perfect", and then something bad happens. And then you're like, "Wow, where did that come from?" But like I tried to be, like, very level headed about it.

But yeah, I'm just trying to think if there's anything that really, that really shocked me. I mean, not that it shocked me but one thing that was a bit of a culture shock for me, but that's I guess just having lived in London and having lived in the West. Because to be fair, like this, what I'm about to say it's like kind of similar to where my family's from in the Caribbean. Things move very, very slowly in Rio and like people that have like a sense of urgency, which is for me, for the most part is fine. But what I really didn't like, I mean, actually, since then, things have gotten a lot better. But I remember going to supermarkets, this was back in 2011/2012 and I would be in there for so long. Just queueing just to get to the till. I think since then, because yeah, when I lived there. I don't remember ever having that level of frustration. But there was one place in particular, I can't remember the name of the supermarket now but I can see it in my head. And I used to hate that place that supermarket so much because I knew I couldn't just go in there quickly and get something and come out. Because they didn't have self service back then and all that stuff and it was literally like it was a lot of queueing. But yeah, apart from that I feel like nah like it was how I expected it to be.

Sagal

That's sick. And I mean, obviously, like, you kind of touched on a little bit, but like, obviously Brazil has so much history and especially when it comes to like race and stuff. And obviously you said like ... you clearly did so much research and you were so invested in the culture before you left. But were you surprised by maybe like, how you were treated there? Or did you feel like you belong? Because obviously there's like, nearly 50% of the population is [Black or Mixed race].

Patrick

Ah, yeah, that's a good question. That's a good question. So yeah, that's I guess that's one thing that I didn't really expect. So when I was there, very often, if I didn't open my mouth, people would just assume that I'm Brazilian, because of the color of my skin. So it allowed me a lot of leeway. But also, what I realized is that a lot of people didn't realize that there were black people in the UK. So if they heard me speak English, they'd be like, "Are you from the United States?" And I'm like, "No, I'm from England" and they were like what?! There's black people in the UK? And I'd be like, "yeah, there's a lot of us". A lot of people had no conception of what like the modern UK looked like. So that really stood out for me.

It took a while to kind of get used to the dynamics of how I was treated in Brazil. It took me a long time to understand how things worked. Because on the one hand, like I said, because I was black, I often just kind of I could just blend in. As long as I didn't wear anything too flashy or anything like [too different]. Like I just kind of adopted this mindset of just behave like the locals do. So like whatever the kind of things that they wear, wear that. Or if something a bit crazy is happening, because I had a couple of crazy moments, just do whatever whatever everybody else is doing. And just blend in, don't stand out. So because of that I was afforded access to spaces that probably as a tourist like as a visible tourists, I probably wouldn't have been the most safe or maybe people would have seen me more like a target.

So I remember like very early on, so the first place that I stayed in was this hostel at the top of this like hilly area called Santa Teresa and at the top of that hill, or further up the hill from where the hostel was was this favela. And like I really wanted to see what it was like. Obviously you hear a lot and like I said, I had a good amount of experience and I'd done a lot of research and read and whatever else but I actually wanted to see what it was like for myself. So I just walked in and I was able to just like walk in nobody like paying any mind to me. Nobody literally nobody noticed until like I was sort of just looking around a bit and probably like loitering a little bit, just looking like slightly out of place and then this one woman noticed that I probably wasn't from there. So she came up to me and she's like, "oh, like, are you Okay? Do you need any help?" And back then my Portuguese wasn't great, so I just explained to her, "I'm not from here, I'm visiting Brazil".

And from there, like, I made friends with this ... that was like the first Brazilian friend that I made. And she introduced me to her family. And yes, from there, like had this like, amazing friendship with her family. But my point is, is like, I was able to just kind of like wander in and nobody kind of like, take any notice of me until it was like a bit of bait that I wasn't from there, because I was just kind of like standing around. But little things like that, I think definitely enhance my experience. I think as a black traveler in Brazil, it's quite easy to blend in so long as you kind of like, look or behave as like locals do, like, they will assume that you're Brazilian, I'd say like, maybe okay, if you wear [a hijab] ... because I didn't really see that many Muslim people in Brazil so like with a hijab.

Parque Lage in Rio

Sagal

Yeah I was going to ask you that as well.

Patrick

But like, if you wear like a headscarf, because they in Brazil, they call it "turbante" like turban. So like if you wear that ... because a lot of black women wear that to protect their hair, like as they would over here. So if you wear that literally people would just assume that you're Brazilian. And like I said it kind of affords you a bit of access and it's quite nice, because you don't get sort of, you don't have this kind of like target that you otherwise would if [you weren't]. Yeah, what else? Oh, yeah. But the other thing that I realized, so this is a thing, being a black person that isn't from Brazil, you get foreign black person privileges. And this is something I've realized that happened anywhere in the world that you go. If you're a black person, you go to a country where there's a lot of black people, but you're not from there, they treat you better than than the local population. And yeah, what is that? Internalized anti-blackness?

Yeah, so it's a mix of different factors. But how that worked in Brazil was like, because by the time I ended up living there, my Portuguese was very good that for a while I can have a conversation with someone and they will just assume that I'm Brazilian, till I'd say maybe a word that was slightly strange or I said, I'm from the UK or something. So I was able to go to places and speak Portuguese and people would assume I'm Brazilian, but that would be a massive disservice in certain spaces. Primarily, like if I wanted to go to like a nice bar, or like ... I remember there was one time, my girlfriend at the time she's from the UK as well, and she was learning Portuguese and she was like, super, like, excited about using it and whatever. And this is when I was living there by the way, not my Year Abroad but this, this story is still relevant. And I remember we wanted to go to like this rooftop bar on top of this hotel in Copacabana. And I'd been there before and I knew they're a bit like they're a bit funny.

As like, as a black person, you get a lot of eyes on you when you inhabit middle class spaces, even like going into like certain shopping malls and stuff like that people will be looking at you like kind of like why are you here? Yeah, Brazil has ... its racism problem is a thing like people think it's like this paradise, like this rainbow nation but boi, the racism in Brazil is a madness. But anyway, so I said to her, like, we're queuing up to go to this place, but I said to her look, "I know you really want to speak Portuguese and that but whatever you do, don't say a word in Portuguese because they will treat us badly, I promise you". I promise you because if you speak Portuguese, and you're black, they will just assume that you're either Brazilian, or you know, you're just not ... English basically grants you a massive level of privilege. So I said, when we go in there, we're gonna act obnoxious. Like we're really wealthy, and we're just gonna speak English and speak English loudly. And we did that. And it's really funny, because I tested it out. I did a small test. I spoke to someone first. And I said, in Portuguese, like, "oh, you know, we're looking to like, go to the bar, like, have you got anything good on this evening?" And they were like, "no, no, no, it's very busy tonight. I'm not sure". So then I thought okay English time. I said, "right, okay, I want to speak to a manager!" and this person didn't speak English. So she was on the backfoot. And I was like okay obviously you can't help me, can you find me your manager? So the manager comes over and she has a decent level of English. And she's like, "oh, yeah, hi, sir! Good evening. Yeah, so you want to go to the bar?" And I was like, "Yep, what's happening? Tell me what's going on tonight." And they were like, "Yeah, we have this, we have that please, please come in". And I said to my girlfriend at the time, you see, like, see how different they treat us because of English. And one thing out there, this is another thing I just just remembered. One thing out there that did kind of surprised me is the lack of people that speak English. So it is a real, like, being able to speak English has a real cultural capital to it.

Anything sort of associated with Europe, similar to the United States, actually, people drop in I went here to Europe on holiday for the summer. Like it's like a thing like people drop that in to show you know, like, I've got money or you know what I mean. But yeah, not many people speak English in Brazil. It's quite uncommon actually to find people that speak English. So it is difficult to do stuff out there unless you have a decent level of Portuguese. Unfortunately, things aren't that well signposted. But yeah, I put together like a Google document for black travelers, well like black travelers that want to have a good experience in Rio for that very reason because like things are very well signposted. Having English in Brazil, like as, as a Brazilian is like is a big deal. And that's why there was such a huge market for me to like, teach English to people that needed it for their jobs and whatever else like, it's like a real kind of feather in your hat if you can speak English.

That's kind of like, I guess an overview of like, how I was treated as a black person in Brazil, it's quite complicated. Oh sorry, so there was just one more thing, that kind of like, I think, highlights what it is like to be a black person in Brazil, regardless of where you're from, or, or like if people think that you're Brazilian. So when I ended up living out there now, I was teaching English again, to people that needed it for their jobs, but like really, really like high up people. So there's a couple of like big engineering firms in Brazil. One of them is called Odebrecht. And I used to teach I think like the Rio managing director of the company. And he was like a multi, multi, multi millionaire. And he was even under investigation for like embezzlement because I don't know if you know about this, but there was like this huge corruption scandal in Brazil called the carwash scandal. I can't remember why it was called that. But anyway, a lot of people were implicated in government and in these top engineering firms and this guy, this guy that I was teaching, he was one, like, I remember asking him so, like, "what plans do you have for next year?", and he literally was like, "Oh, I just hope not to be in prison", or something like that or like I just hope to be free. Like he said it in a very ambiguous way. But like, I kind of knew what he was getting. But anyway, one time I had to go to his private like his residence to teach him because normally I just taught at his office, but this time, he wanted me to just come to his house. So it was in like this really swanky area of Rio. And he like had this like penthouse there. And I'd go in and in any building, like residential building in Brazil or most, you'll have like a concierge or "porteiro" they call it and you get there to the desk, and you say, "Oh, I'm here to see so and so". And when I said this, this guy, this was a black guy as well at first he didn't believe me. He was like, really you? And I said, yep yep. And he was like, "Okay, I'm gonna have to call upstairs to verify". So he calls up, and he's like, yeah, I can hear my guy on the phone like, "Yeah, send him up, send him up". So he's like, "yeah, you can go upstairs", like in a very kind of just callous and rude way. But I was like, you know, at this point, I was kind of used to it because this wasn't my first experience of that. So anyway, I go to the lift to go up to his place. And he's like, the Porteiro, the concierge is like, "no, no, no, not that lift, the service lift, you need to take the service lift". So I do that ... no, I don't take the service lift. I say "no, I'm not taking the service lift. I'm gonna got the main lift". But it was like, because I was black and I guess because I was younger as well, he was like, you know, you don't take the proper lift, you take the service lift, like all the domestic workers. Yeah, it was a real trip. But yeah, that's what it's like.

Sagal

But yeah, that's, that is really crazy. And I feel like going back in terms of what you were talking about, like how speaking English was kind of like, I guess it was a privilege. And people treated you different. I think it's a common thing. Because even with the other like people I've interviewed on this podcast, they kind of share the same sentiments as well. And even myself, like when I was in both Spain and in Geneva, because obviously like in both places, you see a lot of like, unfortunately, and it's the case in a lot of countries in Europe, you see a lot of like, really poor migrants, who are just like either selling stuff on the road or the street or just like, you know, maybe ... you can tell clearly that they're you know, they're not like someone who's born and raised in that country etc. So it's really uncomfortable sometimes to see how they're treated as well and it's like, I know that because I'm English, or British or whatever, and I speak English, I'm treated a lot differently.

And I remember one time so clearly, when I was in Spain, like, I remeber this one guy. I had joined the local football team there. And we had played a match. And after a match, like we went out in this restaurant thing, and as I was paying, like, I went to the till to pay blah, blah. And the guy was like to me, "Oh, where are you from?" And I was like I'm from England, he's like, "What? How? You can't be from England? There's no Muslims in England. How can you be English and Muslim"

Patrick

That's crazy. Where in Spain was that?

Sagal

In Madrid, and I was so shocked. I wasn't expecting it.

Patrick

People really don't have any idea what the UK is like, you know, it's crazy.

Sagal

At all!

Dancing on the beach in Cuba

Patrick

It's mad because I remember like having to tell people no there's actually black people in the UK bruv, we have carnival. And they were like, "what you have carnival?!" and I was like, "yeah, we've got a carnival it's slightly different to yours but it's carnival it's a Caribbean carnival". And they just they refused to believe me, like there were some people that were like, nah I do not believe that you're from [the UK]. It's crazy. It's crazy, like the perception of the UK outside of the UK is crazy. Like everyone just thinks like we just, we drink tea and bow to the Queen. I mean, I like a cup of tea. I'm not gonna lie, but there's more to it than like Buckingham Palace and the London Eye and red buses, do you know, I mean, like, that's all they know. So, um, I remember one time I got asked to, like, give a presentation in this English Language School give a presentation to like some of the more advanced students. And they said, like, the presentation can be on anything. So I was like okay I'm going to do it about the UK. But like what the UK is actually like, do you know what I mean, and like I played them like grime music, I showed them images of Carnival. Like I talked to them about Windrush and like, all like the ethnic diversity and like, they were just blown away.

Sagal

I mean, I wanted to ask as well like, because I remember when I listened to one of your podcasts, I remember you mentioned that how people they knew about Cambridge, and they I think he said they were kind of surprised that he went or they were kind of shocked or something or something along those lines.

Patrick

Yeah I mean, mentioning Cambridge anywhere is a weird one. Because I remember there was ... yeah, like you get people ... I don't know if this was in Brazil, but someone was like, "oh, like YOU went, you know how good a university Cambridge is?" and I was like "yeah, bro, like, I know that. I went there". And he was like, "but you really went there? You didn't go to like, you know, another like, because I know they have different schools there", and I was like no, I went to Cambridge University. It's a funny one. But again, it's that thing when people see a skin color and they just immediately they write off anything like, anything that's like, in their mind that's like, you know, something that's good or commendable. You're a black person so obviously, you can't, you can't do that.

Oh, I remember, there's this one time when one of my students was trying to stunt on me and talking about "Oh, yeah, I've been to Italy and Spain". I was like, wow. And he was like, "Have you been anywhere?" expecting me to be like No. I was like, "Yeah, before I was 15, I'd been to Italy, Spain, France. Germany etc". I just like reeling out these thing. And to be fair, like, I don't like to do stuff like that. But this guy was being a prick. So I was like, do you know what if you want to stunt we can do that all day, do you know what I mean. We an ... we can stunt, we can go back and forth. We can do Venus and Serena. Let's go. Let's go. Um, but yeah, it's just so funny how people will write you off because of that. But like, it's not a like a sob story. It's not like, I'm not going to get out my small violin and start playing a sad song.

Like, for me what was more sort of sobering was seeing, like, how disenfranchised black people in Brazil are and how bad the situation is in terms of police violence, as well. It's a mazza [madness] like it is actually [horrible]. People talk about the United States and obviously the United States is bad. Like, don't get me wrong. But Brazil is like, it's like, the genocide is like ramped up several levels. People will say things like, like a common expression in Brazil is to say "bandido bom é bandido morto" which basically is like a good criminal is a dead one. But like, the word "bandido" is like, very, very, it's racialised. Do you know what I mean, so like, in the same way, like the word 'thug' is like, racialised. Like someone saying 'a thug' they will just apply it to anybody that's black and looks in their prejudiced minds, vaguely threatening. Do you see what I mean, so, yes, it's boy, yeah, it's really bad. But at the same time, like, most of what people consider Brazilian culture is African, like, black Brazilian culture. So the way that carnival was celebrated, capoeira, samba, and a lot of these things were illegal up until the early 20th century in Brazil. And then Brazil was like, actually let's appropriate it and make it part of the national identity. Even like people talk about Feijoada as like a national dish it's basically like a stew of pork. So I don't know, you'd probably won't be trying that I don't know.

Sagal

Nah [laughs]

Patrick

But people really, really like it. I like it. I think it's delicious, but like how that came about because it's like one of the country's like national dishes or it's like renowned. It was literally like a stew that was made by Brazil's black population, I think at the time they were enslaved. And literally it's like the worst cuts of meat - that's like the only thing that was left for them. And they made this, you know, amazing stew out of it which now people are fighting to eat do you know what I mean. Yeah, Brazilian culture is very, very much what you see ... the mainstream Brazilian culture, especially what gets exported abroad is African, it's black Brazilian culture. And to see that that, I mean, it's the story of blackness globally, isn't it? Like, they love the culture, but they don't love the people, like they'll use, they'll steal elements and appropriately and whatever, and just continue to treat the population really badly. So yeah, that was very, very sobering for me. But in a weird way, like, it wasn't shocking. Like I knew what it was going to be like.

Sagal

Yeah, I mean, as you're talking, I mean, I can hear a lot of similarities with the US as well and I'm sure the Caribbean as well. Just in terms of even like how you're talking about the worst parts of the animal, for example, like making do with the littlest or the worst kind of [things]. And I don't know if you've watched it, but there's a documentary on Netflix called "high on the hog". And it's all about like African American food and stuff. And literally, as you're speaking, it was like, it was literally like a soundbite from that documentary.

Patrick

I think that is like a feature of like, the Americas in general. Like a lot of like, the tastiest dishes in the countries in the Americas, where there's a large black population, they are made with like the worst cuts of meat, strictly speaking, but you know, they were made by people that were either enslaved or completely disenfranchised, and that they've made it like this, this delicious thing.

Patrick rehearsing music in Cuba

Sagal

I wanted to ask as a Caribbean like did you feel like there was a lot of similarities when you went to Brazil? Do you feel like okay, well, this reminds me of back home.

Patrick

Yeah. So as a West Indian, yeah, like, I think one of the, one of the reasons that I feel like, I was able to just kind of feel at home there, was because it did remind me a lot of like, back home. So my dad's from Jamaica and my mom's from Barbados. And the cuisine is similar. Because, like a lot of the raw materials, a lot of the ingredients are the same. So like, you know, like, in London, you will struggle a little bit to find like [certain foods]. It depends what area you're in, like if you're in an area that's like not, isn't that ethnically diverse, you're going to struggle to find things like yam, cassava, green banana, things like that. Brazil, like, it doesn't matter where you are, you'll just walk into a shop and you'll find them things. So it was nice to like, it was just very, very familiar. Like I wasn't able to make West Indian food in the same way because the seasonings that they have are different.

But one thing I did like because me like I was saying this on my Instagram the other day, I really like in the West Indies, we call it hard foods. So it's like the starchy food that you get, like yam, cassava, green banana, dumplings, as well. I love that, like I really do. And like I had access to that so freely in Brazil, so I was so happy. So it was yeah, the food but also like, the music as well. But I think this is like more of like a, like a wider diaspora conversation. Like, there are so many similarities between like, West African music, West Indian music, and then like Brazilian music, specifically Brazilian music from the northeast, to the point where like, there's certain music that I listened to Brazilian music and it sounds like it sounds like Highlife or Afrobeats. And this is like before like Afrobeats became like this global thing that everybody now enjoys. This is you know, this is like from the 90s and stuff like. The music and the rhythms are so similar. So it's like little things like that.

And yeah, I guess like the general pace of life like I said, like, it was a bit of a shock because my Western upbringing was like not ready for it but then when I was like, do you know what, this is just like back home so just have that mentality you're not a Londoner no more. And that helped me to settle down a lot. So, so yeah, and I'm not sure what it is, but like the kind of ... so when Brazilians greet each other, especially like people from Rio and again, I think this is like, like quite a sort of an African influence, but people are very very tactile. People do like [sound], people listening to me can't see what I'm doing my hands but you know, like when you dap someone and you do all that and do that. Brazilians do that all the time. And like coming from Europe, like people don't - people just do a polite little handshake. Brazilians don't do that. They're very, very tactile. They'll do a little dap, little hug, you know what I mean, like, an OG hug kind of thing. And that's common. Like, it's not just black people that do it like across the board people people do that. But Brazilians in general, are very tactile anyway.

So it's just like little things like that, I feel like that's why I was like, do you know what I can see myself living here a lot more than in the UK. Like I've lived here my whole life, born and raised in London, East London, but I've never felt like this place is home. And there's just like, so many little things that like yeah, that just, I guess don't really sit right with me. But in Brazil, it was yeah, it was different. Like, small things like that it does go a long way, you know, like, you feel, I don't know, like, more seen as a human being. I don't know. But like, it's a weird one as well because it's a bit of a paradox, because, like I said, being a black person in Brazil is very difficult. It's tough, as a black Brazilian, and it's difficult to see, you know, the people that you consider to be, you know, your kin, or I guess, like your community go through that. So, yeah, it's never sort of straightforward. It's always a bit of a paradox with Brazil. I'd say that Brazil is a country of paradoxes to be fair,

Sagal

Do you feel like the experience for a black woman will be different to like an experience of a black man in Brazil?

Patrick

Yeah, I think as with anywhere you go, as a woman, you obviously have to be a lot more careful, a lot more cautious. And that's just by nature of society being you know, misogynistic. Yeah, I would say you do have to be careful, exercise a lot of caution in Brazil. Not to say that, like you need to like constantly, like fear for your life. And again, I'm approaching this question as a man, so like, it's difficult to like kind of know, like, what the kind of the levels are.

Sagal

Hundred percent, yeah.

Patrick

But yeah, I would say like, as an added level of like caution, you need to definitely have that as a woman. Brazil is a very patriarchal society, very very patriarchal and this is what I mean about Brazil being a paradox. Like, on one hand, it's very conservative, very, very patriarchal. But then, on the other hand, like, people have this image of it of being very like sexually liberated, and I guess in many ways, it is, but it like it's always counterbalanced by like, this very patriarchal, very misogynistic society, a society that is very like anti LGBT as well, in the mainstream violently so.

Sagal

I wouldn't have expected that, you know,

Patrick

Well this is the thing. Like, again, it's this weird kind of paradox. It's like an extreme because I would say that the LGBT community, LGBTQ community in Brazil is very vocal. How can I put it like, the debates around it aren't kind of like ... it's stupid to think that there's debates ... but like, the community is very very there. They're present like you, it's not like you can be there and not experience it and not see it. But it is a very difficult place to be LGBTQ in Brazil. Some of my friends will attest like it's [...]. And it's gotten worse. But I think like, in general, like across the world, we've seen like this kind of veer towards, like the right and fascism and being anti progressive. And that being kind of like a personality trait amongst politics now, like being anti woke and anti progressive. So yeah, it's a feature of the world. But in Brazil, yeah, you do need to be careful with that. But then at the same time, like Brazilians are by and large like a very, they're very friendly, they're very welcoming. So it's ... having to like sort of balance that kind of paradox is yeah.

Patrick and his salsa teachers

Sagal

Yeah, because it definitely seems like an open and I don't know from outside, it seems like a really open and welcoming society. So like, one of the questions I had prepared was kind of like about, what would it be like to be or I don't know, what do you think in terms of your perceptions, or when you were there, how would it be like, you know, to be a minority, whether it is in terms of like sexual preference, or sexuality or in terms of like, religious minority? Because I would love to go to Brazil and I'm sure people are obviously everywhere in the world you have friendly people, and you know open people and whatnot. But I'm so curious to know what that would be like, if you maybe saw anything or if you like ...

Patrick

Yeah, I guess there's so many different intersections here. So it's difficult to give a general answer. I'll start I think with being a Muslim in Brazil. So I'd say that in Rio there aren't that many so the negative associations that people in the West have towards Islam they don't ... they're not there so much in in Brazil. So like, you know, how people in the UK and in Europe see Islam as this kind of like, sinister thing or like this invasive thing or like something you need to be worried about or etc. In Brazil, that's not there so much, if, if at all, because there's just simply aren't enough in Rio at least there aren't enough Muslims. I would say though that there is quite a large Lebanese community in Rio but I think a lot of them are ...

Sagal

Christian right?

Patrick

Yeah, Christian Lebanese, but I'm not sure ... that's the thing. I'm not really [sure]. The largest kind of like religious minorities that I saw in Brazil were Jewish people. So in Rio there's like a few synagogues. I mean, did I see ... I'm pretty sure I did come across a mosque as well in Rio as well. So it's not like, there are none. And actually, it's funny, you mentioned that like, you're sort of thinking like, as a Muslim traveling to Brazil. So one of my good friends, she's from Salvador in Bahia, and her mum and her husband, they opened like the first mosque in that city in Salvador. So if you want us to put you in touch with them,

Sagal

Yeah I would love to yeah cos I'd love to go.

Patrick

Yeah, they just, like completed it earlier in this year. And like, they're really excited about it. So yeah, I can definitely put you in touch. I think yeah, traveling to Brazil as a Muslim, I don't think ... it's not like if you were to travel to like an intolerant place in Europe. It's just not, it doesn't ...

Sagal

It's not common to see

Patrick

Yeah, and Islam doesn't have the same negative associations. That being said, though, I remember, in carnival, one thing that I saw that was, I really didn't like, but I feel like this is just kind of like imported ignorance. So there was one person who's like, whose carnival costume was like, like a Taliban fighter or, like, something like that. And like, they were sort of taking the piss out of Islam. I think they had something that was supposed to be a Quran and like a prayer mat as well. But that's like, literally, that's the only thing that that I saw. But I can only speak from my own experiences.

More widely speaking, I think a really important thing to do in Brazil is to find your tribe. So like, find people that look like you or have the same same values as you. And I think most people are able to find that they just need to be put in touch with the right kind of people, which is kind of what I wanted to do with this Google Doc, that I've been like, sort of adding to over the years. Because, okay, so like, as someone that's LGBTQ, if you traveled to Brazil, the mainstream culture is quite hostile, very hostile to your identity. But like I said, the community is very very visible, very very present. They are there, like they have, you know, like a lot of events, nights out, things like that. So yeah, you can definitely find your tribe there.

And I think, I mean, it's difficult because like I said, there's so many intersections, but I think for most people, you are able to find that group, because the one thing about Brazilians across the board is that they're very very welcoming. So it's not like you will get there and you'll meet someone that shares like a commonality with you, and they will just shun you. Like they will, more often than not invite you to be part of their clique, and like, take you out and introduce you to their friends. Because that's that's how I made friends in Brazil as well. Like, you just get introduced to people like, "oh, come and meet us at the beach, and we'll go and like, you know, go for a drink or go get some food together", you know. So, and there's like a very progressive side to Brazilian society as well. So you do have like, the quite sort of conservative side of society, but also there's like a very strong current of progressive-ism as well. So yeah, I don't know if that really answers your question.

Sagal

No it did. It gave a good like summary, it did. I was gonna ask because you touched on it as well in terms of like making friends and stuff. Because I'm assuming the people you were working with were quite like middle aged or were they young or?

Patrick

It was a mixed bag. So I have like my Brazilian friends, like black Brazilian friends. Some of them live in the favela, others don't. And yeah, I'd say they were like, probably like the close to me in terms of like family, but I would say like, just in terms of like having like, similar like sort of experiences, I suppose. I'd say that they were probably the most sort of welcoming. Often when you travel, you will find that the people that have the least are often the most generous and the most welcoming. Not to say that you know, my friends were like, you know, struggling whatever, but like I feel like the wealthier people are the less likely they are to be like, you know, come to my house for dinner and stuff like that. But yeah, I had like that sort of core group of friends and then I had like friends from from work which is like a kind of like mixed bag of like expats and then like sort of like white middle class Brazilians. And then like friends from like, the internship as well, which is kind of like a, it was a similar vibe. But like in terms of the people that I went out with most it was like that first group.

And so how did I make friends? Like how did it all start? I stayed in a hostel for the first three weeks that I was in Brazil. Yeah, so one night I was going down to ... I mean, I had made friends in the hostel and we were going to go out in this area called Lapa which is like kind of like the Shoreditch or like Soho of Rio and then on the way down on the bus, it was like a little minivan because at the time in Brazil, they use like mini vans as like kind of unofficial buses. So we got in like a little VW camper van thing. And next to me there was this, this woman who was Brazilian, but she was speaking in English because she was there with some friends. And I said, "Oh, you are you from London?", because you sound like she's from London. And she's like, "Yeah, yeah, but I live here. I live here." So anyway, we like chatted the whole way down. And like, we made friends. And then yeah, she said, like her dad had like a room going in his apartment. And I could like, move there if I wanted to, if I didn't want to stay in a hostel, but it wasn't quite ready yet. So for like, a couple of weeks, you can just stay at mine. And both places, were like literally around the corner from the hostel. And yeah, so from there, like I made friends with her. And then like, she was an artist. I got introduced to other friends. And that's literally how things worked for Brazil, like people were very, very friendly. And yeah, just by like striking up a conversation with someone can lead to making like good friendships and like people putting you on to stuff. Because I think it was her actually that told me about the guy that was looking for an intern at Timeout. Yeah, it was her! So it's like things just kind of like fell into place just from like sort of chance conversations and things like that.

That's generally the way of it in Brazil, like you do ... it's very easy to like make friends and make connections. Because like I said, I went out there, I stayed in a hostel I was on my own, I didn't know anybody. And it was first time I'd been there, and I made friends very, very quickly. And like really, really good friends as well. It's not the same with like, everywhere, but Brazil is one of those places, you can definitely go on your own and stay in the hostel and make friends very very quickly and have a great time. So people that are listening, that are sort of maybe hesitant about traveling on their own - in terms of like making friendships, I think Brazil is like, it's not one of those places that you need to worry about. I think also like in terms of safety as well, if you do make friends, you know, they will look out for you as well. Especially like Brazilians, they won't like allow you to get caught up in madness and stuff like that. So yeah, and like I said before, Brazil's one of those places where you can find your kind of, your kind of people. Like you can find your tribe and feel that sort of level of like reassurance and safety, because you're in that group.

Sagal

And if anything I feel like being alone helps you make friends because I feel like when I went to Geneva, I went with people from my university. So I already knew a lot of people. But then when I went to Madrid for the second semester, I was alone, and I made better friendships. And I mean not better friendships [laughter] but I made friends quicker.

Patrick

Yeah yeah.

Sagal

And like within like literally, within like the first couple of weeks, I was like sorted. Like I had friends there, I was going out places and whatnot. Even in terms of like, when I was in Geneva, I went to Berlin for like, a couple days away. And I stayed in hostel and same thing like when you're around other young people, and so they're also in the same type of mood innit or the same type of, I guess, vibe in a way - like they want to travel. They're kind of like minded people and whatnot. So it's really easy to meet people in that way.

Patrick

For sure, for sure. And like what you said is so key, like you find like-minded people. You're not going to go somewhere and stay in a hostel and find people that have nothing in common with you because you're there for very similar reasons, you know what I mean. I always encourage people to travel and not kind of wait on other people to do it. Because it's very difficult to like organise a trip with like, multiple people sometimes just go out there and just do it for yourself. Obviously, like speaking as a man, it's I guess it's easier in that sense, like in terms of like being safe. You know, a few of my good friends, female friends that have traveled, they've done the same thing. So yeah, like if anybody's listening and you know, they need like, some advice from someone that isn't a man, I can definitely put you in touch with with them as well. They'll be happy to help.

Patrick and his Landlady in Havana, Cuba

Sagal

Yeah. And in terms of like, I guess traveling around the country, or like, the continent, how easy or difficult was that?

Patrick

Okay, so the first time I went to Brazil, I didn't travel that much I don't think. Did I travel? I did a little bit, but it wasn't like, it was to do with like work and stuff like that. So I didn't really have to worry about stuff. Brazil is a vast, vast country. I did travel to two places kind of just like out of leisure. And I traveled to Sao Paulo, which is like the next big city down from Rio. That was a very long journey. It was like maybe seven hours on the coach. And then another time, I went further south to a place called Curitiba and that was maybe about ... yeah, that was even longer. I think it was like maybe eight hours, seven hours for Sao Paulo and then maybe 10 hours/11 hours for Curitiba.

Sagal

All by bus right?

Patrick

Yeah, on the coach. And the thing is like the coaches, right, they so number one, Brazil doesn't really have like a train system. Again, it's very similar to America. They loved off cars, like they had the same kind of like individualistic idea that tevery person should have a car, blah, blah. So they don't really bother with train infrastructure like that. So everything is done via roads, right. And to compensate for that the coaches that you get in Brazil are really really nice. Like when you go to the coach stations, they're almost like airports, like they're really ... like they go in. And then the coaches you get like seats that fully recline, super comfortable. It's not like going on a Mega Bus or something like that. So at least there's that. You can get flights. Flights aren't the cheapest in Brazil. But then the exchange rate at the moment is kind of mad, like, so your pound goes a very long way in Brazil at the moment. So that's something to bear in mind. But like there are no short journeys to different cities in Brazil, like Sao Paulo is, I think, like the closest big city to Rio, and it was still like seven hours. So it's, yeah [laughs]. And then like to go to like, if you wanted to go to like the northeast, I think you should definitely think about getting on a plane rather than a coach, because that's something like maybe 18 hours driving. So yeah, it's a long way. It's a long way.

Sagal

I think I forget how big Brazil is like.

Patrick

It's huge man.

Sagal

It basically makes up the whole of like South America like it's massive.

Patrick

Yeah like, it is like a continent in its own right almost. Like the states are like country sized. So yeah, is very, very big. And also like on most maps, right, I don't know if you know about this ... I can't remember what it's called ... because obviously the globe is round, and maps on 2D, it's impossible to like replicate it accurately. Like a 3D surface on a 2D surface, right. So on most maps, the southern hemisphere is made to look a lot smaller than it actually is. So you just have to do like a Google search of like actual size of South America, but you will see how long it is like, it's really, really long. But I think because of how Eurocentric map making was in the early days or whatever, Europe and like the northern hemisphere are made to look really, really big. Also, like it's the same thing with Africa as well. People don't deep how big Africa is, but it's for that same reason, because it's so long, like so yeah. Bear that in mind, when you go to Brazil, there's no short journeys.

Sagal

Even I remember like .... I've heard about this as well, like, I was looking at the comparison between the UK and Somalia because I'm thinking on a map the UK is looking quite big.

Patrick

It's tiny!

Sagal

When I compared it it's tiny. When I compared it to Somalia, I was like Somalia has a lot going on for it you know.

Patrick

Yeah, that's the thing. Like you look at Europe, and you think like with all this big countries. Like Russia as well. Russia is a massive catfish. Russia is nowhere near as big as it looks on a map. Like, it's tiny. Like it fits comfortably within Africa, the whole of Russia and you think like Russia goes all the way around the side. But because it's so far north, it's occupies a very slight small patch of land, but on maps is stretched out. So yeah, Google the real, like the true size of South America is, you'll see how big Brazil is. It's no joke.

Sagal

And I mean, just to go back a bit because you did touch on like your language improving and like your accent and stuff. So before and like after, do you feel like you improved a lot? Was there a significant change?

Patrick

100% 100%. Like, I can't emphasize how important it is to go to a country to become proficient in a language. Because it doesn't matter how much you study, right? When you're speaking a language if you're doing well, you're not piecing together all the little bits of vocab and grammar that you've learned. You're not thinking okay right, I want to say this. And then you think, okay, how to conjugate this verb, or what's this word here. When you learn to speak a language fluently, what you're doing is replicating and rejigging composed phrases that you've heard, right? You're not like putting these little building blocks together, you're putting phrases and sentences together. So my fluency came from staying there, I think. Yeah, my Portuguese was pretty fluent by the end of my eight months there. And then my Spanish after three months in Havana, to be fair, my Spanish was already very good, because at this stage I'd been learning it for eight years. Whereas Portuguese is only two years. But after Havana my Spanish was banging. It's funny now because my Spanish is just terrible now, I'm not even fluent anymore. But my Spanish was ... it was sick. Like I remember I came back for my exam. And they were like, "Oh, you've been to Cuba, haven't you?" And I was like, yeah. They were like your accent is so strong, but it's good it's good. And this was like in the actual exam. So I was "Oh, okay. Thank you. Thank you very much!".

Sagal

That's like the best compliment you can get right!

Patrick

Yeah, I was gassed. I was like, okay man, I'm Mr. Cuban Pete now man. If you want to become fluent in a language, go to a place where that language is spoken and just immerse yourself in it. There's like growing pains at first, because it takes a little while to come but after a while, things click into place. I'll never forget the day where I didn't have to like actively listen to understand things anymore. Like I could just passively understand things. I remember I was walking down the street and like before, I'd have to like properly listen to someone to understand what they're saying. But now I can hear all these ambient conversations going on.

And it was so funny I remember just bussing up because the conversations was like infidelity and just gossiping. And I was like Brazilian people are actually the funniest people on the planet. They are hilarious. But it was such a surreal experience because I was like, wow, I don't have to like [listen] ... suddenly everything became noisier because I can hear everything. It was crazy. But that comes from having spent time there. And I don't think there's any other way of doing it. Like, obviously, like you can learn things on like, like at university or Duolingo or whatever, using apps. But to get that like real kind of proficiency and fluency, you need to spend time in the country where the language is spoken.

Sagal

And then obviously, because like now I mean, I graduated like a couple weeks ago.

Patrick

Congratulations!

Sagal

Thank you. What I'm thinking about now is like moving on, how do I keep like the fluency? Or how do I keep maintaining the language? I don't know, any tips you have?

Patrick

I'm not the best person to ask for my Spanish is so bad now. Luckily, I have quite a lot of good Brazilian friends. And I don't know what it is, I think like, Portuguese, Brazilian Portuguese, for some reason, it comes more naturally to me than Spanish does. Which is weird to think now. Because back in the day, Spanish came very naturally to me, but it's like people that hear me speak in Portuguese, they say to me, like my sister was saying it to me the other day because we got chatting to these Brazilian guy she's like, when you speak Portuguese, you just sound like you've always been speaking it. Like it sounds like but not to the point ... like she wasn't trying to gas me. She was just trying to say like, it sounds like that that's how you express yourself.

Sagal

That's beautiful.

Patrick

And yeah, let's and it's funny how like certain languages, they do that because I genuinely feel like this country that I've been born and raised in, like, I've always felt like I don't belong here. And like, I feel like I'm able to express myself more authentically in Portuguese, probably not as well in English yet because and also because I've been out of Brazil now, and I was speaking Portuguese yesterday and it was rusty. I was very embarrassed. But like, there's certain I don't know, just like expressions and like turns of phrases. And I'll give you an example. So when I have to, like translate Portuguese into English it's a lot easier for me to translate if I think in terms of slang, so like if I think in terms of UK slang, like certain phrases in Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese is easier to translate for me. I'm trying to think for example, now.

Sagal

Yeah, give an examples please because that sounds so interesting.

Patrick

Yeah and I don't again, like this is like, I don't know, like PhD kind of like linguistics kind of stuff. Because it's like, I wonder if because obviously, like British slang is highly influenced by like Jamaican Patois, but also like, a lot more of it now incorporates Pidgin, even, like Somali words as well. And I wonder if, like, the kind of approach to language that African diasporas have, the reason why it's like, easy for me to kind of like adapt from Portuguese into English with the mindset of slang is because of that approach to language. It's I don't know, I just feel like speaking Brazilian Portuguese, I feel like there's more to work with in terms of of language. But yeah, tips to keep proficiency up. I'd say just like, watch films, TV shows, listen to music, but also, like make friends with those speakers. So like, yeah, there's like a lot of like meetups and things like that. There's like language exchanges as well where you talk for like an hour in English, and then an hour in whatever language, and stuff like that. For me, like I haven't really, like when you get into work, it's like you don't really have time for that. Because like, I have like a lot of other commitments as well. So it is easier said than done. But I would say that is a really good way of like keeping up your proficiency for sure. And travel, go back there, like just spend time there. I lived in Brazil for two years. And now I think that also has like a big effect on like why am I Portuguese is still good, because you don't lose it so easily once you've been there for such a long stretch. You know?

A mural in Brazil

Sagal

What was your favorite thing about Brazil? If you had to like, name one thing, what would it be?

Patrick

The people. For sure, the people. Yeah. I don't know, if there's really much more to add. There's so much to it like, I think that Brazilians are like top five funniest people in the world, maybe top three. They're very, very welcoming. It depends where you go in Brazil, but like, I think in general, they're much more welcoming than Westerners. They know how to, like, enjoy life on a day to day, like life is to be lived out there. Whereas here in the West, it's like, you live to work. Whereas I think every day is a day to be enjoyed when you live in Brazil. Like even on like the smallest level like, you'll meet up with friends, you go for a drink, you go for like something to eat, like, there's like a degree of like spontaneity in Brazil which I enjoy. In the West, it's not ... I feel like it's not like that. You got to like make plans and also like the adherence time as well like, you gotta be here at this exact time. Whereas like, out there, it's a little bit more relaxed. Like I remember I went to this girl's birthday party and like the starting time was seven. She didn't get there till midnight. Now that's an extreme example. And it was annoying, but like ...

Sagal

That's African timing.

Patrick

Yeah, and it's like things will happen in their own time, you know. But yeah, definitely, my favorite thing about Brazil was the people 100%.

Sagal

Whenever I tell people, like I study languages, the first thing is like, "Oh, what are you gonna do with it?" And so my question is, what have you done with it? Like, what has been your career path?

Patrick

Okay, so I've done a fair, fair amount. So when I lived in Brazil for two years, I worked for the Olympic Games as a journalist, I was an editor of the online official website. And yeah, I mean, I couldn't have done that without like [languages]. I was mostly working ... well actually nah I'd say 50/50, like 50 percent English, 50 percent Portuguese. I wrote mostly in English, but I often had to like use my Portuguese to like get an idea of stories and stuff like that. Or if I had to interview someone. So I was doing that, but also presenting the Rio Olympics online social media content. And in that, again, I was using both languages. So that was pretty cool.

And since then, so my last job I mentioned, I was a project manager, like, the more specific term is Transcreation Manager. What transcreation is, is like creative translation. And it's something that's used a lot in, in like various types of media industries, but in advertising especially because it's very difficult to translate, you know, advertising campaigns, taglines, things like that. You have to use an element of creativity to do that. So I was basically project managing the language side of the international campaigns that my company did for like loads of different brands like Amazon, Coca Cola, Reckitt Benckiser, which is like a brand that owns like all these like homewear stuff. Like if you look at like your cosmetics or your deodorant, or your disinfectant spray Reckitt Benckiser is the owner of that brand. There's loads of different brands. So [for that] that I needed it. I would say, it's not essential to be able to speak a foreign language, but having knowledge of a foreign language definitely helps because the thing is, like I covered like all markets, like it wasn't like I just focused on Portuguese and Spanish speaking countries. I did everything. But having knowledge of of a second and third language definitely helps your project management in that specific industry.

I'm still figuring out what I'm supposed to do. Like, I don't know if I'm the best example to be like, this is what you can do with languages by my own experience, like I'm still working it out. But at the same time, I think having a second language, third language is invaluable. Like I remember I went to Amsterdam a few years back, and that was the first time in so long, I'd been to a country where I couldn't understand the signs. Like I couldn't get by, because so I've never studied Italian, but if I go to Italy - like I've been to Italy a few times - I can get by fine. There's no real issue. Like my spoken Italian is not brilliant, but like I can read the signs, I can read menus, I can go on the metro and go around on my own. And same with France as well. So like any kind of like romance language, like if I go to a country that speaks that language I can get by okay. It was only one I went to Amsterdam in the Netherlands, where I was like, rah like, I've forgotten what this is, like. Like to actually not know what's going on. But everybody in the Netherlands speaks English anyway. So well most people do.

'

Yeah, like having another language, it goes a long, long way. Like having Portuguese in Brazil, it enhances your experience so much. Because you just get to do so much more things that aren't signposted for tourists. Like you know, you'll find out about them

Sagal

Calm. And then the last question I had was about like growth because I feel like obviously it's like really you know, cliche and all that kind of stuff. But like, I definitely feel like when I went to ... in general with my experience abroad, I learned a lot about myself and I learned a lot about others in that process as well at the same time. Do you feel like you went through some sort of personal growth when you were there? Clearly you loved Brazil enough to go back again!

Patrick

Yeah, ah man ... personal growth. Yeah, I learned a lot of ... I learnt patience, resilience, being adaptable, for sure. Because like I said, nothing went to plan but everything turned out better than I think I could have ever planned for. And I think it was just accepting things for what they were and adapting to it and making the best out of the different situations.

I'd say that the most kind of like growth that I experienced was living in Cuba. And I know this conversation isn't so much about Cuba, but uh, yeah, like the first six weeks I was in Cuba, I actually hated it. I really didn't like it. Because I had left all my friends behind in Brazil. I left like that whole support system. Like I mentioned earlier, like I was supposed to study music at this conservatory. And I got told like, two or three days before my flight that I couldn't do that anymore. So I had to change my plans. I went to Havana instead. And I was like, spending a lot of time trying to work out what I was going to do because I still wanted to study music or I just wanted to do something just to like kind of validate my time there. Because you do kind of have to like give like a little report at the end. So I couldn't just be like I went to Cuba just for jokes. Do you know what I mean. So yeah, I really had to dig deep I think in Cuba and in the end things turned out really, really nicely. I made like a really good group of friends and I ended up being tutored by this violinist out there and then I joined his orchestra as well.

So yeah, but I really had to like dig deep and kind of like be resilient about it and patient as well. And yeah, persistence is something that I think if I hadn't had that experience in Cuba, in my third year, I wouldn't have made it through final year of uni because final year was really tough as well. But I think I really learned how to kind of depend on myself but also like, learn how to like reach out to people for help, as well. There was like a mixture of two things. But I really learned like what I was made of, and I think after that, I really felt that I can do anything. After doing this on my own, like I was out of the country for 11 months. It really made me feel like bring on I'll travel anywhere. Do you know what I mean.

Sagal

That's sick. I feel like yeah, I definitely relate. But again, I don't want to take up too much of your day, but thank you so much for coming on.

Patrick

No, it's fine! It's been a pleasure.

Sagal

I've honestly really like, I've really enjoyed it. And I was gonna say as well if you do want to like ... if you're comfortable obviously to leave the link for the doc that you mentioned. Like I'm sure, listeners. I don't know if it's ready or?

Patrick

Yeah. I haven't updated in a while but I'm happy to like drop the link.

~~~

The Rio Tips document can be found here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T_ICoHi-LpwzX9aL7GdCzkp1PeIcYOahe0C6qQk5LTg/edit?usp=sharing