Guadeloupe & Réunion Island: Living Abroad in French Overseas Territories

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Episode 4: In this episode, I am joined by the lovely Rhoda (@gothisha) as we discuss her year abroad in Réunion Island and Guadeloupe. We touch on working in the Caribbean, improving confidence when speaking a foreign language, colonial mindsets/remnants, colourism, French Overseas Territories, adapting to life abroad during Covid19 as well as her experiences studying Languages at QMUL as one of a handful of Black students.

Sagal [host]

Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me for another episode of Memnoire - a podcast dedicated to the experienes of black students who go abroad. So in today's episode I am joined by the amazing Rhoda. Please introduce yourself, what you're currently studying, where you are and where you went for your Year Abroad.

Rhoda

So my name is Rhoda what I'm doing right now is that I've taken a year out so I'm on a ... what do you call that... an interruption. So yeah I've taken a year out [and] I'm currently now in Guadeloupe and my degree is history and French.

Sagal

Sick! So you went on your Year Abroad ... the first year was 2019-2020 right? And then you decided to stay another year?

Rhoda

Yes, I had to because COVID did a number on everyone so I was like yeah, I am not going back to the United Kingdom, I'm going to stay in Guadeloupe.

Sagal

Yeah, not gonna lie [that was a] smart decision because this year at uni was ... it wasn't it at all.

Rhoda

I had a feeling to be honest cuz nobody was prepared. Like everybody was like, Oh my god, what do we do? So I was like, I would rather continue in like learning French, and get to the, you know, get better at French, than spend a year, you know, having to be like, sorry to say, we're kind of a guinea pigs for the new system.

Sagal

100% yeah! Like, you're smart, man, you did the right thing. But I'm gonna jump straight into the questions I've prepared, yeah. So let's begin by how it's like in general to study Modern languages, especially as like one of the only [or] one of the few black people in class so like, I don't know, how has it been like for you? Have you ever felt like out of place?

Rhoda

Studying modern foreign languages, I feel like it's been pleasant. It's been pleasant. But on the other hand, there's also been a lack of visibility. I feel like because I studied History and French, I noticed that I liked the French cohort more than the history cohort, because I felt like the history cohort, they're very to themselves, they don't really like to, you know, integrate and speak. But the people I've been around in for the past like two, three years at QM in the French cohort, they you know, people talk about thing, people are more social in the French cohort. And also, surprisingly, there's more black people, even though there's not a lot of black people in French. There's more black people in French than there is in History as well. So yeah, I feel like I vibe more with the French cohort.

When it comes to content wise. I feel like while there is an effort to you know, decentralize the French narrative, I don't think the effort is conscious enough, do you know what I mean. I feel like there is room for improvement. And I say that ... we're gonna talk about it later .... but I was in the RAFA2 project, and I remember we had like a training day or a teaching day. What do you even call those days? "Conference" that's it! So a conference and it was about diversity and inclusion I remember there was a certain member of the department who was there and she was you know so proud - she was like well yes, you know, in the French Department we like to diversify when we do our examples we use names like, you know, Mohammed in our exercises and I was thinking "That's a lie!". I didn't say anything but that's a damn lie! And even the fact that you think that just changing a name on a piece of paper on an exercise is enough work for me is like clearly there needs to be more [done].

And also the staff - I feel like the staff just needs to be diversified because there are certain modules which I do give them credit for ie the module we did on Frantz Fanon and so there is a module that's going to be out next year about Afro European identities. What shook me a bit was the fact that the people who are leading these and it's not to be ... how do I say ... it's nothing personal but people weren't even in the conversations and these discussions are not [lead by] Afro European people. Do you know what I mean. If you had a lecturer from ... I don't know or who had origins from Martinique, Guadeloupe, or if you had a lecturer who is black and lives in France to speak to us about that, I feel like you could pick up on nuances you might not necessarily pick up on by just having an all white staff. And it's not to say that there's not black French Lecturers out there there's definitely Black Lecturers you know what I mean. Who is teaching in France then? So yeah, I feel like that if you want to diversify your module content you also need to kind of go the extra mile you know, I mean, cuz the thing that interested me was the fact that one can say that, you know, we're, Afro-European because, you know, we're black, we live in Europe. And for me the dynamic is a bit weird learning about your identity from someone who doesn't really have that experience.

Sagal

So strange. it is so strange.

Rhoda

As I said before, half of it is Yeah, but the other half of it is there could be more done, to be honest.

Sagal

You know what it is yeah, like, especially in modern languages and in humanity in general, they like having the conversations because it's like, it makes them feel like they're doing bare. But the thing is, the more uncomfortable conversation is about hiring black and brown staff members, because I'm taking a module this year. I'm not gonna lie I'm actually really enjoying the module, but it's led by a white Brazilian and it's called African cinema - it's a module all about African cinema, right. And I'm like you know how banging this module would have been like if it was actually run by an African person. Do you know what takes ... the nuances would have been different

Rhoda

Definitely 100% 100% and I think it's not just a QM problem it's a problem in higher education but for me it's like if SOAS can find all these black and people of color why like what's everyone else doing? It's not they don't exist,but yeah.

Sagal

100% you're right, I'm not gonna lie. Especially when you said like they're in France. There's going to be black teachers teaching in France. like the maddest thing is like we're gonna come back to this later but like Martinique is technically part of France Guadeloupe is [too] but you know, these countries are part of France right? They're like Black like majority countries so you're telling me that there's not one black professor there. Meanwhile, you know, what's crazy is that they're happy to hire like white English professors to teach French rather than black French professors ... that don't make sense.

Rhoda

Something you said on your other podcast [episode] which I really agree with [is when] you said that there's this implication or this assumption that languages are colorblind, so we don't need to make that effort. But how can you teach about France, France because their history and their present right now isn't just the 'metropole'. So you have to consider all the other identities which fall into France and they're not necessarily white identities so this assumption that languages have to be colorblind. It's not even just France you have even you know Spain and other other countries, like you need to know that your narrative might not be the full picture and need to make an effort to diversify that narrative

Sagal

100%, 100% especially, the mad thing for me is like when ... because when I ask this question I was thinking about my own experience like I remember the first day I joined [uni] I came into French class and I felt like everyone was staring at me because I was ...

Rhoda

I remember the first day you went into French class! [Laughter] I'm crying! Oh my God!

Sagal

Honestly, I felt like everyone was staring and I felt so uncomfortable because the maddest thing is like you know in French classes like in secondary school and in sixth form it's full of our people in it, so I feel so comfortable. But then when you come uni, it's like these French classes it's no longer your friends and people look like you - it's all white classes and there's a couple of black people or Asians just like speckled around but I felt mad uncomfortable and even like it's worse in Spanish honestly, because with Spanish it's a thing of like, I have to try harder to feel like I fit within it because with French I have family who live in France.

Rhoda

Oh you have family who lives in France! That's cool.

Sagal

Yeah they live in Strasbourg. And I know that there's so many African countries that speak French as like a main or one of the languages right so it's like I can ... there's something I can connect to. But with Spanish it's like when I tell people I speak Spanish it's like so why did you ... Why do you learn Spanish? Why did you learn this? So it's like ... I don't know. Have you ever felt that way with French and maybe you haven't, but

Rhoda

Felt that way with French ... Not Really. I mean, when I do meet people they're shocked I speak French, but it's not more so of like, why did you pick it? Do you know what I mean?

Sagal

That's good, man. I'm glad. The next question I had was about before you went abroad. So did you have any like fears or worries? Did you feel like you had been prepared or supported before [going] by the year abroad team?

Rhoda

Before I went abroad, so I left to go to Reunion August 2019. Did I feel like I had support. Um So no, yes, in the sense that I was given contact details of people who were in Reunion so I did speak to them, you know, and did know about how things go down. But I feel like the more administrative things like ie accommodation, I didn't want to live in [student accommodation] because I knew that all the international students were grouped in one place in [student accomm]. And I was thinking very much about my language skills because before even up until the end, but [especially] before going to Reunion I had a real problem speaking French. It was just like, a lot of anxiety actually verbalizing the French. So I was thinking I want to put myself in a situation where I have no choice but to speak French, which is why I opted for, for a "collocation" [shared apartment], but there wasn't really much you know, support it was just oh, here, look at these links, you know, I mean, but it was something I could do myself. Literally, I think it was a week before, a week before I was going to Reunion ... and this is a prelude to the attitudes in Reunion ... the landlady that said she would hold my room for me and I had given her deposit stopped replying to me, stopped replying to me. I was messaging her and calling her but she was airing me and someone else in our year group was going into that same place and I asked her, "have you heard from this woman?" and she was like, "yeah", and I was like "so why is she not replying to me then?". And then at the end of it, she says to me, "Oh, actually, I've given all the four rooms away. You don't fit our profile. You're not staying here for a year". And that wasn't true because everybody else that was there conveniently was white French or either mixed. And they weren't saying that for a whole year either. So how come I didn't fit the profile, but everybody else did.

Sagal

It's cap, man. It's all lies!

Rhoda

Do you know what I mean! I was literally in despair innit, so I found something through Facebook and that will lead to another story which we will get to. Yeah, like I didn't ... when it came to that part I felt very lost because like, there was no help on that side. You know what I mean, but apart from that, I felt more ... I was so excited. I was really excited to go! I felt like I had an idea of reunion - I thought it would be this utopia because when I when I left England, I was really at rock bottom. I had enough. I was exhausted from that RAFA2 Project. I remember even the week I was leaving I was a victim of hate crime so I was just like ...

Sagal

Fam what's going on? Literally same with me you know, same for me as well.

Rhoda

Really?!

Sagal

I swear down. The same ... literally the day before I was leaving. I was in Superdrug and I was with my little sister I was getting like hair products and stuff, right. I was getting last minute stuff, right. And then I was in the queue and the lady was calling me a monkey ... doing the most

Rhoda

Oh my god. That is so mad.

Sagal

You know what I said when it happened? I was like, yeah, I'm ready to leave.

Rhoda

That was me! I was on the bus. She basically started saying how she knows where I'm from. Where I'm from everybody has AIDS, said the N word. I was like yeah, get me out of this country, I've had enough now. Because I was like already done with what I know. And now you're being racist to me in my area where I live. I said no, it's enough. That's a shame. That's a really ... that's a shame

Sagal

I know it's trash but ... I can't believe the same thing happened to you as well I'm literally like, what's going on.

Rhoda

honestly, I thought Reunion would be like a utopia but you know.

Sagal

So my next question is leading on from this. So like, what were your first impressions like of Reunion and then of Guadeloupe in the second semester.

Rhoda

So in Reunion my first impressions ... when I came to Reunion I thought that they classified themselves as Africa because the surrounding countries such as Mauritius and the Seychelles, they classify themselves as African. When I got there, it was very much "No, we are the Indian Ocean". They don't classify [themselves as African]. I remember saying to somebody "Oh, yeah, this is Africa!" they were like "no it's not". No, it's not. So I was okay. And when I landed, I thought there'd be people that look like me. But there wasn't, I remember getting to the airport. And I'm just like, wow, like, I still felt like, Okay, I'm not seeing people that look like me, maybe just the airport. But when you leave as well, there's still people that don't look like you as the population is very mixed, it's very weird. It's weird because the population is very mixed. And secondly, at the same time, it's crazy because you see families where like one person is black, one person is white and one person is Asian like you will see a family like that. But people are still very much in their own communities at the same time. It's like it's a ... it's an interesting dynamic, it's very mixed, and multicultural. I would say, probably one of the most multicultural places in the world. People say London is but if you go to Reunion, you will see that that place is very multicultural. 100% but at the same time, there was still separate groups. It's interesting to witness. Yeah, so that was Reunion when I came there I did feel like an outsider because there's a neighboring country called Mayotte and they recently became a French Territory. So there's this kind of tension between people in Reunion and Mayotte because you have a lot of people who are from Mayotte who have migrated to Reunion and obviously I resemble more a girl from Mayotte you know, dark skin, you know, thick 4C hair. So people would mistake me for a girl who's from Mayotte, and that did shape some of the experience I had with some people because of this tension which we will get into later.

Sagal

That is so crazy.

Rhoda

And I remember feeling like ... when I first got there I remember feeling like wow, all these girls are lightskin, they have loose curls that I was like damn. I remember bringing my wigs with me and I was like I cannot wear my wigs here, I will look so out of place! And so even wearing my hair was fine because people will wear their natural hair more so but you see more girls with you know, like loose curls and light skin and ... it's like rah!

But Guadeloupe on the other hand? Um, I remember I was on the flight to Guadeloupe and I remember looking out the window and I promise you I saw the most beautiful sunset I have ever seen in my life. And we were obviously above the clouds and I was just like this is the most craziest thing I'm experiencing like look at this gorgeous sunset and I was like that's a sign clearly. This is definitely a sign. It was so beautiful, the sunset and I remember getting out of the car and I was sitting in .. sorry getting out the plane and I was sitting in the car/taxi to my Airbnb and I was just there deeping it and I was like, whoa, I'm in the Caribbean right now. Actually, in the Caribbean right now. I was just in awe. Oh, and I was overwhelmed though when I came to Guadeloupe because I was all alone. It wasn't like that when I came to Reunion because obviously I had come from QMUL who came with me, but I was literally all alone. So it kind of hit me. And I was like, whoa, I'm doing this by myself generally by myself. But yeah my experience of Guadeloupe was that everybody looked like me and you know a lot of people look like me ... not everyone but a lot of people look like me. And it was a place where I felt like finally I don't feel othered.

Sagal

That's amazing.

Rhoda

It was nah ... the feeling was [amazing]. This is why I'm dreading coming back to the United Kingdom cuz i don't i don't feel othered. You can go in supermarkets people look like you. You go into offices people don't like you. Like in my in my office where I was doing my year abroad, I wasn't the only black person there - everything there was black.

Sagal

Wow. That's amazing.

Rhoda

It was and I feel like it's hard for people because you know, when you live in the West, and you're white, you are the standard you know what I mean so I think like it's hard for people to kind of understand that feeling. But when you enter into a society where they don't make you aware that you are black that you know you are different. It's another kind of relief, it just feels ... it felt amazing. It felt comforting honestly.

Sagal

That's amazing. That is such ... that is a lovely experience. I need to go Guadeloupe man, you're making it sound amazing!

Rhoda

I promise you, you need to come Guadeloupe!

Sagal

The next question I had was in relation to like the fact that you know, both Reunion and Guadeloupe are like French Overseas Territories, and just for like anyone who doesn't know like so I think France has like what roughly five Overseas Territories so Guadeloupe, Martinique, French Guyana (in South America), Mayotte, and then Reunion as well. And so obviously in some of these, I mean in, you know, more obviously about this than me, but like in these places, people are basically French nationals right. So they have ... they can vote at the National Assembly, and all that kind of stuff right. So did you feel like the people there had ... did you feel like they had a dislike or like towards France, and I don't know what was the attitudes of the people there.

Rhoda

So in reunion and in Guadeloupe, [coughs] excuse me, very, very stark differences, in the sense that ... I feel like this is also why my experience in Reunion was the way it was in Reunion. So in Reunion, I feel like there's more of an idealisation of the Metropole, of people who come frpm the Metropole, and of White Westerners. A lot of people and I feel like this is not even just about reunion, because I feel like it's the way they've structured their territories, a lot of people need to leave these islands in order to progress more in their career. That's the way that they have structured it. But regardless of that, in Reunion, I felt like a lot of people were just excited to leave, they're like, "yeah, I've had enough of Reunion, I want to go France, I want to go to France". And there's this thing ... and this happens also in other territories, but I feel like in Reunion, maybe maybe it's because, again, when you have multiculturalism, you assume there is an absence of racism, and that's what happened. That is reunion. They assume because they are multicultural, there's an absence of racism, which is not true, because and, how do I say this, so because of this complex, and you know, they kind of idolize metropoles and the Metropole, you even have discrimination in jobs, where if there are two people with the exact same qualifications, and one lives in reunion, and one is from France, they will put some person who is from France.

Sagal

Mad!

Rhoda

They will pick the person who is from France, because to them it's just like well, and sadly, maybe because of history, they assume that the French person is better educated and better fit to do that job. You do have a lot of of, you know, French metropoles who do you know, I don't think it's just because it's Reunion but you know, in Reunion, I don't think they've kind of clocked on that's it's a problem. You can have people who would just, you know, come and they can work and they can get jobs very easily, very, very easily, because there is this assumption that they are better qualified and they're more suited to this job.

Sagal

That's crazy because I'm sure if someone from Reunion went to France, they wouldn't be treated like that.

Rhoda

Exactly. Which segues me nicely into my next point. So you know how I said that you know, they mistaken me for a girl who come from Mayotte. So I was receiving microaggression and blatant racism from people we weren't even you know white. And I thinking to myself, "hold on, to be honest, me and you are more alike than you think we are". And if you go to France, you will get treated like this. So why are you spending your time and unfortunately, I have to be frank here there is ... and people in Reunion might not agree with me, but as an outsider looking in, they have a problem of xenophobia. They have a strong problem of xenophobia, because I have literally witnessed people ... I'd go to the market and you have someone shouting about how Reunion is only for Reunionais(e) people and how people from Mayotte should go home.

Sagal

What the hell?!

Rhoda

Do you know I mean! I have a friend who is from Mayotte, and she told me a story [of how] she was on the bus and someone said .... what would they say like, what's that in French? "Vous n'etes pas chez vous" ... [thinking]. Oh, they said something like that, like like you're not at home, you're not in your country. And even though she studies there and people migrated there.

Sagal

That is wild

Rhoda

Even though people integrate, people really keep their own traditions in the sense that you can easily identify a girl for Mayotte. Either she'd be wearing her hijab, or either she would be wearing a traditional [outfit].

Sagal

Oh they're Muslim?

Rhoda

Yes, it's a 90% Muslim majority.

Sagal

And is Reunion majority Catholic or Christian?

Rhoda

I think it is majority Catholic yeah. So that could also [be a factor]. But was interesting [is that] Reunion is actually I think it's majority Catholic. But that's not entirely true. Because you have people who are also Hindus. People who are maybe Buddhists as well. But what I noticed is that when you have big celebrations, I remember we went to the Divali festival in Reunion, like everybody was there, no matter what religion you are. I mean, there might be some people who would have opted out but I would see girls who are in a hijab there, people who are Christian there. When it comes to like celebrating religious holidays, people are very tolerant. And you know, there's a lot of religious tolerance, but however they do have a problem with xenophobia, and yeah, I've seen myself people you know, in the market, saying, "Yeah, Reunion is just for Reunionais(e) people, blah, blah, blah." And I've had friends who've had their own experiences as people [and as] somebody who's come from Mayotte, who've had people from Reunion say to them, "no, you're not from here". And that baffles me because as we were saying before, like that's the same kind of behavior you'll encounter at the Metropole - Don't get it twisted. Do not get it twisted. But there is this very much sense of "I am French". This whole "I'm Reunionais(e)" it also happens but I feel like it's "I am French first and foremost" which is a different dynamic to that in Guadeloupe. I must ... well from who I've encountered ... I have to admit my observations are based on the people I have encountered.

So yeah, so this whole xenophobia thing was also what shaped some of my experiences for example, I had two major experiences so the first one was we went to a ... went out drinking and I remember [we were with] one of these Erasmus students, she was a white German. And when she spoke English she sounded totally American. And yes, she was the one who suggested it. She was like, "yeah, let's go to this club, let's hangout". And I was like, "Yeah, why not? Why not?". Oh, actually lies before I got to the stage of [saying] "Why not?" She said to me, she said the name of the club to me right. She said the club to me. And I was, "hmm, I don't know actually because someone else had a problem ... I'm not gonna say names ... someone else had a problem going into that club." Someone else who was also black. So I was like, "I didn't really know about that club", and she was like "nah don't worry if anything happens and it's a scene i'll pop off, I'll kickoff bla bla bla". So we get there and we were drinking at somewhere called 'Le Chat Blanc" - it's a lovely bar, with karaoke and everything. And we went to the club afterwards and I remember I was the first person who approached the security guards. Bear in mind when I was in reunion, I got very very tanned, I got very tanned. Like the darkest I had ever been. For me it was ... I feel like the things were heightened. My experiences were heightened because I was very dark and obviously I have no problem with tanning, I have no problem being very dark but when that that shapes your experience with other people it just gets really upsetting after a certain point. So I approached this guy and I'm like "hey, we want to get in" and then first of all he says about how we're not 21 we can't get in. First of all that was a lie because we were there already at that same club, at a student event. We were there at a student event and he was saying "oh, well that was an event". And by the way, sorry, but this whole story about 21 ... the French don't really do that. So I don't understand where that new rule was coming from. And then I said I wanted to speak to the manager because I don't understand why you guys are making up new rules. And then the guy was like "what manager are you gonna speak to etc". And then, I started to get upset, because they started changing the rules and saying, "Oh, actually it's not because you guys are under 21 it's because there's too much of you". I have never heard of not letting people into a bar because there's too many of us. It doesn't make sense you need clientele no? You need people to go out to the bar. We've already been there - we've already been to the same bar so it's not like it's a new bar i've been to. I mean club sorry! And so I speaking to the security guards who were there and this was also what really bothered me a lot because I was suffering a lot of xenophobia and racism from people who are not even white. So it was just like, are you for real because these guys they were Asian, they were Asian or Asian presenting anyway. I was talking to them and I was explaining my frustration, like I don't know why they change it or change the rules and can they be honest about what's happening? And I promise you and I kid you not. They were looking straight through me like I wasn't there. They weren't looking at me, they weren't speaking to me they were just letting me talk and they were ignoring me and that's what sent me the most because I was like, I'm standing right in front of you as a human being and you don't want to acknowledge my presence. And then we have someone else who also goes to QM who is White male who intervened for me and he was like they need to you know like be more respectful with the way they're behaving towards me, and they started talking to him. And one of my other friends she is what we call a 'yab' so these are people who have who have ... I'm forgetting ... but white people who move to Reunion and who stayed there for quite a while they're called people who are 'yabs'. I'm sorry if that's not the correct definition of it because I do not recall it to a tee. So she also looks physically white as well. And she's speaking to them and they're speaking to her back so I'm just like "how are you guys speaking to the people who are right next to me?" who are not [black] / who are not you know dark skinned and you're just ignoring me when I'm speaking to you and you guys are not even white so why ... Why are you putting me through this? That was one experience.

A second experience was with my landlord - oh my god, story story story. It's going to be a storytime on my YouTube

Sagal

Listen I'm ready! I'm ready to watch it!

Rhoda

God! Reunion was just wild because it was like, half of it was the best time of my life and half of it was the horrible times. It was so so so weird - it was a weird experience like I have amazing memories and I have horrible memories as well at the same time from that place. So yeah, my landlord now so obviously again this is why I feel like they should have given us much more information and support about renting and accommodation because I was very naive. I've always lived with my mom, I don't know how these things work. So when I moved in normally you're supposed to sign a contract - I didn't sign any contracts right. I was just giving them money every month. A contract should abide both of you to some certain standards you know what I mean. When I got there I promise you it was ... it was havoc. Like they were scammers, because the place they didn't even clean it before I arrived. There where things that were broken and they wouldn't fix for days, things that they made me pay that weren't included [or that] they didn't say were included. And so I remember one day I'd had enough of it. I was like I'm living in this place, I don't enjoy it, I feel like you lot are taking the piss taking money from me. So one day I packed up my stuff and I left. I remember I had a housemate he was white German as well. He left some weeks before me but he didn't pay a single rent for that month. He left and they didn't say nothing to him. I left but I said you know what, I'm going to pay you the rent but I'm taking 100 euros because you guys ... I've given you over a thousand euros already and you guys don't deserve the money the way you guys are behaving.

Sagal

That's a lot of money!

Rhoda

That's a lot of money already! And then next thing you know, the landlord also who like I said before they're both people from Reunion, they didn't say a word to that white German boy who left a month and didn't pay a month's rent. Didn't say a word to him. When it came to me now, he was belling off my line. It was harassment! He was belling off my line, he was threatening me, he was calling me all the name under the sun. He was calling the university saying that he's going to come, and he's gonna make a scene and everything. And it was so bad I had to go to the police and make a complaint. I had to make a complaint to the police and I just feel like even though the officer who was treating me it's like she got it but I feel like she was just there like, "hmmm maybe you should have just given him the money". And I'm thinking "hi, hello? Sorry if I was a white tourist who was here crying in front of you would you be so like more [to his side]. I was just confused because he was doing something illegal - he's renting out a place without contracts. That's illegal and it's me you're telling me I should have ... maybe I should have given the money. I was like I've already given him all the money I have. I took out a hundred euros for very valid reasons, and your sympathy for me is capped. How can [this happen]? Somebody is not allowed to bell off my phone and threaten me and call the university I go to for that. I remember asking the white German boy I was like, "this is how this person is behaving towards me - what's been happening with you?", and he said "Oh, I didn't get a message about that". Nothing happened to him. And I was just like ... and that was near the end of [my time in] Reunion as well and that really, really like put me in a bad place because I was basically effectively homeless for ... for [the rest of my time in] the end of reunion because of what happened. And again, I was staying in [student accommodation] with some of my friends, and the whole Reunion dynamic was that being dark skinned in reunion, it was like people will perceive you in a way ... because I guess they think of you as someone from Mayotte, or just colourism. Reunion has a real colourist problem. And it's like, I remember there was a security guard and what sucks about colourism is that it can come from anybody, even people who look exactly like you. and there was a security guard (black male as dark as me) and I remember explaining the situation - Look, I'm homeless. Because heard us laughing in the room and he came, and you have to have these cards to show that you live on campus, I didn't have one. And he came and he was basically like I need you to get out. And I was like, I'm homeless, like this has happened to me. And he was literally still insisting that I leave. And I was just like how can you ... how can you look at me, a young black girl who's not even from this country, who can barely speak French to you and explain what's happening, who's really upset and distressed, and still insist that I need to go out. Where do you want me stay? On the streets? You want me to stay on the streets?

Sagal

That is disgusting.

Rhoda

That's the thing about white supremacy because the people that look like you will, who want to prove themselves to other people, because of you know, how they think that black people act, they want to prove themselves. So you were showed an opportunity where you could have given me compassion, and you decided to, you know, play up to a system which enforces white supremacy and to try to put me out on the street, out of things that I couldn't control. I remember, what was isolating about my experience in Reunion is that when I would try to explain to people what was happening, I felt very gaslighted. I can't even fathom it but I felt very gaslighted because people always try to see the best in others, like "maybe he didn't mean it like that, or maybe etc" but no, I'm not crazy do you know what I mean. And I remember after I explained it all to him, I had two of my friends, obviously, one's black and one is from Mauritius. So she's Asian but she's from Mauritius. And they were like to me, "Oh Rhoda like, you know, even in your voice, like when you try to, you know, speak to people like it's like you have this tone". And I remember feeling so so so so so so so so so so so so so upset about that,

Sagal

Wait what did they mean?

Rhoda

They mean that I sounded a bit aggy (aggressive) and it's like I should have ... I should have tried to soften my voice but bro? I remember saying to them, I was so sick and tired at that point. Because the advice I was getting from people was that maybe to manage this you need to try to police yourself. That's the advice I was receiving. You need to maybe try not to be so aggressive, try not to be like this and that, but that's what I was doing. That's what I was doing and things were still happening. And even up until the point where I'm literally at rock bottom and pleading and begging not to be put on the street and I'm still being perceived as aggressive. Fam after that I just switched off and I was like I'm done. I'm so done with trying to try to come across as more palatable for everybody because I literally was begging him and I can't I can't do more than what I've done. I was speaking to him as calmly and as softly as I could. And yet people around me perceived me to have a bit of aggression in me

Sagal

That is horrible. I'm so sorry you had to experience that. That is disgusting. You know as you're speaking I was thinking because like when I was ... something I noticed is that like the British passport slyly helped me but was that not the case because it sounds like it didn't matter?

Rhoda

It was the case but obviously you have to say actively ... have to physically say I'm British for people actually to change but when I don't say anything, people would act the way they're acting, do you know what I mean. When people hear me speak and they hear me talk they're like, "Oh!", but if I keep my mouth closed they don't care.

Sagal

Bruh, that is horrible. But I mean your experience of Guadeloupe was completely different then because number one, one thing I noticed on your like [insta] when you were posting stuff on Instagram and whatnot is like how much they celebrate African tradition right because I'm seeing all these parades and stuff and people like proper celebrating.

Rhoda

100% because even in Reunion they do that as well but I feel like things are [different]. The psyche in Guadeloupe is so different to the one in Reunion because in Reunion before we left as well it's called ... I remember [but] I forgot the name, it's on the tip of my tongue, but it's a [national holiday]. They celebrate the abolition of slavery, I believe. And it's like a whole parade and everything. They wear the clothes and you have a ... it was very good, it was very nice the parade and they have a concert as well like there's celebrations. But how do I say this, even though there's public celebrations of stuff, I feel like there's again with the people I have interacted with the valorization of history isn't necessarily integrated into the public psyche. I remember one of these girls we knew she was wearing like what I would call wax cloth and she was like, "yeah I'm dressed like a slave". This is a black girl by the way. Because I feel like it's intentional the way that they ... how do I say this ... the way things have been structured for them to absorb their history that they associate that with a slave when really and truly you know you're ancestors were people before they were slaves you know, they were definitely people before they were slaves. But [with] Guadeloupe [it was a] totally different dynamic, totally different dynamic. Here there's even an independentist movement. So you might see a different flag than the one that's black, yellow and blue - there's a flag that's green, red, white and yellow which represents the independence movement here in Guadeloupe, like people were wearing it like on their shirts or their dresses, people will have it in their bio like people you know, how do I say this, the people I've met don't necessarily subscribe to this idea of like .... more in the sense that they also value their culture a lot and it's like when I was in Reunion people would be so adamant that "this is France, this is France". When I'm in Guadeloupe they make it a point that this is Guadeloupe. This is Guadeloupe, you know what I mean, and since it's Guadeloupe, it kind of exentuates the fact that this is a country in itself, a country that has its' own history, a country that has its own you know culture and that that is not the culture of France and that's okay. We are a French territory, we are French but we're not 'french' we're not just French. We are Guadeloupéen and we have our own cultures.

Sagal

I like that!

Rhoda

Honestly such a stark difference even when I speak to people here I can have conversations about the structure of the DOM-TOM territories and what they think about that. I can have very stimulating conversations about that and people are more aware than they are here, than they are in Reunion, People here can be like to me, "Yeah, we know that there are things [that are] problematic about the way that this is a territory". Some people even feel like you know this should be its own country and these are conversations that are being had in Guadeloupe and I have to make it very clear this is due to my experiences you know what I mean. I didn't experience that in Reunion [and] that's the truth. But in Guadeloupe like I said these are the conversation that I was having with people and I still have with people and people to me seem very much more aware of history and even current politics with France and you know Guadeloupe. That's how I feel about it anyway

Sagal

That's mad interesting. Um, yeah, you've already sold Guadeloupe to me like I'm definitely going sometime soon.

Rhoda

I felt soo good when I came here as well because I was like this is such a difference from Reunion because obviously COVID hit init so I didn't really have the luxury of living and also I would have to admit that when it comes to modernization, I would have to admit that Reunion is more modern so it was more easy for me to travel around the island than it is for me here because I don't drive. If I drove fine but I don't drive so in that sense that you know, France has developed Reunion more than they've developed Guadeloupe when it comes to transport and stuff. So I was like yeah, I didn't really get the... well I was going out way more when I was in Reunion than I was in Guadeloupe but for me if I feel at home in a place, if I feel comfortable in place for me that's good enough, it's good enough. I was supposed to go back to Reunion and I remember [saying to] Elsa and them man (lecturers at our home university), "listen give me an extension on the deadline because I do not want to go back to Reunion especially being alone because the first semester is when literally the majority of people leave so everyone would have left to go to France or go back to Cologne or go back to Berlin or wherever they came from". And I was like I do not want to go back to Reunion after everything I've gone through and knowing the way people treat me. Literally I promise you, I was gonna buy a ticket maybe the weekend ... no at the start of the week that I was supposed to go. I was supposed to buy a ticket basically in a few days to go back to Reunion because I couldn't find a job. I was sending out all these CVs and next thing you know, I get email from a woman who is ... she works in the cultural sector in Guadeloupe saying, "yeah I really want you to come down". I said thank you Jesus! Thank you Lord!

Sagal

God came in clutch for you!

Rhoda

Period! Period. And I feel like me working in the cultural sector, which I still do now, it gives me insight into the culture and into how people think about you know, Guadeloupe as a country so I ... I am in a space where I can have these kind of conversations, you know what I mean.

Sagal

You know what that's the perfect segue into our next question. The next question is all about like the workplace. So what do you do, like explain to people listening, would do you actually do there?

Rhoda

So I think I'll talk more about my Erasmus because I feel like that's more relevant but you know I will still mention what I do now. So with Erasmus I worked for a company ... well it's not really a company ... the way the French system is is so complicated - it's not like the English system. So it's like imagine if - where do you live in London?

Sagal

Fulham.

Rhoda

Wait so Fulham is South London?

Sagal

You know what it is yeah ... I live in between Fulham and Chelsea. Fulham is [not SW] but listen my postcode is South West so I'm from South West.

Rhoda

Anyways I'm going to ignore that comment [laughter]. So let's imagine that we have Southwark, we have Lambeth and we have Westminster. Let's imagine that we have those three boroughs, right. Let's imagine there's a government body that like, which run through three boroughs. So imagine that - so that's basically what was happening in Guadeloupe. So I lived in Pointe-à-Pitre - it isn't the official capital but it basically is the capital. So in Pointe-à-Pitre, there's Les Abymes and Baie-Mahault [and Le Gosier]. And these are the three communes which is run by the government body I was working at. So I was specifically [part of the team] for the direction of Cultural Affairs and cultural actions. So my boss literally beautiful amazing woman. Can I just say, the way that they made me [feel] so welcoming, they're amazing. They insisted that I "faire la bise" with everybody, they insisted that I get a cup of coffee in the morning. My boss was like listen, I don't want you ever to get my coffee. Your job is to be productive and to be creative and to actually work ... I didn't hire you to be my coffee runner you know what I mean.

Sagal

And this is where again?

Rhoda

This is in Guadeloupe. I studied in Reunion and I worked in Guadeloupe. So yeah everybody was just making it so welcoming. They'd ask me how I was, how my day was and like very different. Maybe I've not really worked in [a lot of placees]. I haven't really worked in UK. I have done work experience but I felt like they made an effort to very ... to get to know everybody in the office you know what i mean. They wouldn't just do a thing where I'd come in and I won't say "hi". When you come in, you say "Hi" to everybody and you know how in English culture we don't "faire la bise", for me I was like, "Oh my God, this is so awkward!"

Sagal

It's so weird. Wait, explain to people what that is because not everyone might know.

Rhoda

Basically it's when you give someone a double cheek kiss so you go left right and you just say hi. It's a way of greeting people - people that you know or if it's your friends' friends and you meet them, you have to "faire la bise" as well. People find it rude if you don't do that.

Sagal

But you know in Ghana do they do that, or no?

Rhoda

Nope.

Sagal

Mad because in Somalia they do that.

Rhoda

Oh they do that [there]?

Sagal

Yeah so I'm kind of used to it.

Rhoda

Oh well I'm glad you're used to it, because I wasn't!

Sagal

You know the mad thing is in different cultures they do it [a] different [amount of] times. And it's like, you have to just guess init because I think ... I think in my culture it's three times so like 1-2-3. In some cultures they do two and some cultures even do four you know.

Rhoda

I personally, I think that's a really beautiful way to greet someone, I love it. And I just feel like it is just ... it kind of brings people closer together. Do you know what I mean?

Sagal

Yeah 100%

Rhoda

Honestly, I felt very integrated at my workplace. So what I was doing, I was doing community management and also I was doing translations.

Sagal

This must look banging on your CV you know!

Rhoda

[Chuckles] Period! So basically in the cultural thing, one of the projects I was working on was called [name of intitiative]. It was an initiative where they give children who come from like disadvantaged areas, the opportunity to learn instruments and to form a orchestra which will go on and represent Guadeloupe in the Paris Philharmonie Orchestra. So it'll be children for I believe 7 to like 15 max [and] they've learned to play like the the trombone, the trumpet, the violin, everything. And so in that project, there's sub projects as well so you have projects where they go out for trips, they go to visit somewhere, or they go and do this or they learn some art so I feel like for me, it was really really really rewarding to be part of that project and be part of a thing where they given back to the kid in their community who are not from you know, necessarily priveleged areas. They can't really pay to have violin lessons and everything. And so I would translate documents, I created a website which would help people you know, donate money, but you know, COVID hit. And so by the end we opened up though in July. So I was teaching English to some children, and we did a very very cool ... what's it called ... a spetacle at the end of it. So we had different groups doing different things. There was like poetry, there was music, there was stop motion. I was hosting in English with my co worker who was hosting it in French. First imagine that this woman, I literally found out on the day after we finished she was Miss Guadeloupe I think.

Sagal

No way!

Rhoda

Bruv she showed me her wikipedia page! I was like I've been working for you for how many months, and you have never said that you were flipping Miss Guadeloupe!

Sagal

That's actually banging you know - that is sick!

Rhoda

People were taking photos and I was asking, "why are they taking pics with this woman?". Because I've been working with you, and I'm like who are they all taking photos with this woman?. And then people were like to me, "did you not know she was Miss Guadeloupe?" and I was like "what?!". It was such a beautiful experience and being able to host that as well like I'm very happy that they, they trusted me enough to be able to host this. I really cannot ... I really cannot express how much and how thankful I am to my boss, because even during COVID times, she came she gave me masks, she was like 'don't worry' like 'you'll be fine'. She assured [me of] my job. She was like, "you'll be fine". Like she was really fighting my corner. And everybody in that department was so nice, so lovely, so welcoming. I feel like it is one of the best places that I've worked for and like I said before, it was so refreshing to not be an ethnic minority in that space

Sagal

That is amazing. Ah! That sounds like, honestly, like an incredible experience. So when you were there, did you stay there [with that company]? Are you still working with that same company?

Rhoda

No, unfortunately, I couldn't continue my contact with them. Because I was working under, like as a "stagiaire" [intern], I wasn't like a "salariare" [full-time employee]. Well, all I'm thinking about is the French version of the word. Even though I got compensation for being an intern, right, but it wasn't the same status as being employed. So I tried to apply to be employed, but you know, COVID, and that didn't work out. Right now I work with an association and I'm doing "a service civique". I was say Civil Service but it's not really an equivalent. Service Civique is similar - it's like a volunteer, but you're being paid. So I'm working with an Association called [...] and it's an artistic association, which works also with the place I was working at, which is called Cap Excellence. So they work with them, and they work with other partners as well. And they do similar things in the sense that, you know, they, they help artists, they help push, you know, emerging artists, they do workshops for children in, you know, disadvantaged areas. That's why I'm doing. I'm also the community manager for them. And I do help coordinate some of their projects as well.

Sagal

That's amazing. That is so sick.

Rhoda

Lovely. And because I already met the woman when I was working at Cap Excellence. I was like yeah, this is a good person I can work with because I already met her and I already know her.

Sagal

That is amazing. Aight calm, so it sounds like you had like a really nice experience at the workplace. So my next question is then like, you mentioned, I think you mentioned that it was the first time you're away from ... I think you said your mom for a long period of time. So let's put Reunion to the side because that whole thing was just a bit 'meh' but in terms of like, how was it like the change from being ... I'm assuming you have siblings right ... so from having siblings and people being around you to then like being on your ones and also working like how did you find that change?

Rhoda

You know what - I'm not someone who gets homesick but I did recognise in Guadeloupe I got homesick, but I feel like that was exacerbated by COVID. I feel like if there wasn't COVID then maybe I wouldn't have gotten as homesick but I feel like being in another country during the pandemic, you're basically alone. I remember I was [staying] at this house of this woman that I didn't really know that well, we got on well during that time, but you know, that's a story for another day. It's just everything is heightened. Your emotions are so hightened, being confined in an apartment. So yeah, it wasn't easy during that time. I have to admit it was not easy. I feel like just a lot was going on, like [with] my mental state when I was confined. But even though that my family and stuff weren't there as I said before, my co workers, my boss [were] amazing. They would message me asking me how I am, how I'm doing. If there was anything I need to talk about [that] I should call them up and speak to them.

Sagal

Ahh that sounds amazing.

Rhoda

No, they're lovely, lovely, lovely people. They were just like I understand that you're alone and everything. So if you want to call if you've got any problems, just let me know. Some people were even asking me if I've got enough money, I was like, "sis it is fine, like don't worry". So yeah, it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy, but I still had support from other people. But I'm not gonna lie and be like it's all hunky dory because I feel even now we're not the same as we were last year. It's still a bit hard because like when you're used to, I don't know, like how do I say this, because I don't think it's anything intentional but when you have people who grew up in a an island, everybody knows each other. Everybody knows each other, everybody has gone to school together and everything. So sometimes it's hard to integrate yourself. That was the problem in Reunion, which is why we stayed a lot with the Erasmus students, it's hard to integrate yourself with the young people [there]. And it's not ... it's not because they don't want to be integrated but it's because there's just things like nuances that you might not understand or you might not get ... you have the same friend for 10 years. So it's not as easy for me to integrate into this group. I feel like some times, it is hard for me because I want to go out, I want to do this, I wanna do that, but you know, I might not have people who are necessarily on it or necessarily always available because they have other things to do. So that ... that is lowkey a downside to it. But I think it just comes with time, like if you stay long enough in one area you're going to meet people you can kind of rely on.

Sagal

A hundred percent.

Rhoda

I have now innit but it's still not easy, as easy as it would be to go to London and be like, hey, let's go to ... let's go somewhere, let's do something and everybody is like "let's go!"

Sagal

Yeah, that was [the same for] me like I found it difficult at first to make friends when I was in Geneva. But by the end ... because I feel like I was hanging around with way too much with Erasmus students and especially because like some of them, like some of the mentalities weren't it I'm not gonna lie. They weren't all the greatest of people - like there were nice lovely people, but [I didn't get along with some]. Yeah, I didn't ... I don't know. There was a group of people that I did really like in terms of the Erasmus students who like I still try and keep in contact with today. But like when I actually just stopped hanging around with like the QMUL lot and like the whole ... all the other Erasmus students, I made amazing friends literally and I was like, "damn I'm not having to do shape shifting around you". I'm just being normal, you get me. Even stuff like ... I want to ask you this question, it's not on the list yeah but I want to ask you anyway. Did you find it weird, like having to change ... I don't know if you did this ... but having to change how you spoke? Like because for me, it was like they might not understand what I'm saying when I speak English, so I have the like either talk a lot slower or just like really cut out any sort of slang or anything out of my speech

Rhoda

Is this for the Erasmus students or for the local students?

Sagal

Both, I did it for both literally.

Rhoda

I don't know, because with the Erasmus students ... how do I say this ... I feel like they got us, they got us and a lot of them spoke very good English. So again, the locals in Reunion, because obviously my student experience [there] was only one semester, I didn't have a student experience for Guadeloupe. So with the local students, we didn't really interact with them because ... we interacted with some, some but very few local students, because like I said before it's hard to integrate ourselves with other people. The only local people we interacted with was English students, so Reunion students who were studying English, and students who ran societies specifically for Erasmus students. We didn't really branch too much out of that. So when it comes to changing the way I talk like, honestly, we just spoke [normally]. And because there was a quite a big English group, I don't really feel like I had to change. And the English people hung around the English people so I didn't really feel like I had to change the way I spoke. But on the point where you said that, you know, some of mentalities were weird, which is interesting, because there was also .... the majority people were Germans. I think second was English. And a lot of German people that I encountered they had very good mentalities. And they were, they were quite, you know [open-minded]. I remember there was one guy - shout out to Tom - who was not having it. I remember in some lessons, he was not having some of the things they were speaking about and I liked that there was this person who didn't look like me in any way - he's white German - he would speak out about certain things and like, make us feel like yeah, like he's on our side. And we're like, "yeah we like this guy!" But also there was this person who was American, who was of a certain faith in America, I'm not gonna say which one, and those people are known to be quite racist. I remember he made a comment when we were doing presentations about how the police are just doing their job when I brought up police brutality and I was, "are you being for real?!"

Sagal

Gerourahere man! What kind of nonsense, man. That type of stuff, we don't tolerate man. None of that man. But so in terms of the Erasmus students, so you mentioned kind of like the attitudes were ... at least the ones you came across were pretty decent right? Yeah, that ... that is nice. You know, sometimes when I say stuff I'm like, "ah damn, I'm giving an impression that all of them are like this". Nah. There were some that were calm and there were some that were just decent and stuff cos for me, what would happen is like sometimes when things would happen to me, and I'd go to these people who I thought at the time were my friends, they wouldn't really take it that seriously. And it became like an entertainment type of thing. It was like entertainment factor for them. So yeah, and it is what it is. I wanted to ask you, like, you mentioned right at the beginning, RAFA2 - that project thing that you were working on. Can you like explain a little bit about it just because, I mean, especially after the whole, like, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement was at it's peak in a way in summer you know, well last summer. Like this time last year, right. And I guess today is also kind of like the anniversary of lockdown, you know, like this whole week.

Rhoda

LOL

Sagal

Yeah. So like, in terms of like, I don't know if you were seeing it, but like, Uni was doing bare in terms of like sending messages out, or they were just trying to do ... trying to show that there was doing stuff, right. And so there's been stuff happening and stuff, but like, I don't know, like, what's your experiences been like in Queen Mary in general, and like your experience of that project as well?

Rhoda

Sensative topic! Sensative topic bro! Because I mean, at the end of the day, it was Queen Mary who shut down the projects. It was Queen Mary that didn't want to continue funding the project. It's funny because when we started uncovering stuff that actually they had to address they was like, "whoo, we're gonna shut this down. We've done enough". That's enough progress on this for one day. Let's wrap it up. Let's wrap it up. I remember ... I don't know if you were there ... but there was this teaching and learning conference, the one I spoke about [earlier] as well, where a certain staff member claimed how diverse French was, whatever.

Sagal

Explain what RAFA2 is as well yeah

Rhoda

RAFA2 .... RAFA stands for 'Reaching Assessment For All'. And there was a first RAFA project which I wasn't on - I came during RAFA2. I heard about it through this collective of women professors ... I'm so sorry I've forgotten their names. This is what I mean, it's been two years.

Sagal

Is it the "woman's cafe" stuff?

Rhoda

It is headed by ... well, when I was there, I don't know who heads it now, but when I was there, it was headed by a woman who's part of that collective. So yeah it was that initiative, which is a collective and they fight to be anti-racist in the classroom. And I heard through them.

Sagal

She's Asian right? I think I know who you are talking about.

Rhoda

One of them is Asian ... it is a group of women, like it's a group. And I came in for workshops, and I remember stumbling into, I don't know how, they were in the chapel, you know how they had this nest in the chapel, and then there was poetry and stuff. And then I performed a poem, which was very, you know, cliche, whatever. But I remember speaking to somebody and they were like, "oh, you know, you might be really interested in RAFA". And I was like, "What's RAFA". So I got the contacts of Nas, who was the one who was heading RAFA, and then I find out more about it, and I was like I'm in ... like I'm in. Because I remember, I was part of Decolonise [society] in the first year of uni. That was one of the first societies were I really found my place. I remember feeling so frustrated about just how always ... there's always hurdles. I remember one time I don't know if you were there, but there was an EDI [Equality, Diversity and Inclusion] committee in the languages [department] at SLLF [School of Languages, Linguistics and Film]. And Decolonise were raising certain issues and I remember raising an issue about a specific lecturer.

Sagal

I remember that! Yeah, I remember that.

Rhoda

And it's like, they were like, "okay, noted". But nothing was done about it. And it's like, and I hear from other people about this lecturer still making certain comments and certain ideas and I'm thinking, how can I ... and if this lecturer does something that I want to study now, how can I go into that person's course knowing that this person already has a preconceived idea of what is right and what is wrong? And give my opinion which I know I'm strongly against the ideas that person has. It's problematic, you can't have people who are ... you know not even impartial, you know

Sagal

He's biased.

Rhoda

Yeah, exactly you can't have people who are biased being the ones in charge of speaking on behalf of other voices or voices that they don't even really relate to. So yeah, RAFA was a project where ... what we wanted to do initially was look at every single department but we had a lot of departments in the school refusing us. They don't want to know ... they didn't want anyone to know so it was only two departments at the end of the day. It was School of Geography, and it was International relations and politics. So it was about student experience, you know, looking at how diverse modules are. About how do I say it ... how conversations about race are, you know, handled in those spaces and everything and if people even really [care] like do the student body care about race and stuff like that. So we did like, like student interviews and everything and I remember, interviewing this one girl, I don't remember what School she was from, and it's even better that I don't remember what school she was from. And she literally ... and it's a recurring theme ... there is this hesitation for students to speak out about race or about racist things that happened to them.

Sagal

100%

Rhoda

Even speaking to me and all this was confidential, all of this was confidential and even in this confidential setting there's still this hesitancy for them to speak about their own experiences. So we look at, you know the data as well like who's doing the best and everything and again the frustration with this project is that you want to take this further, you want to show them the data, and there is backlash. Because there is this culture of not wanting to accept the truth because they think that the bare minimum is the fact that we have 60% for lack of a better term, not really a fan of this word, but 60% BAME population and they think that's answered the problems. Okay, well we're a diverse uni so. But that's not where the conversation has to end, I'm sorry. So and we were looking at what we call ... what I loved about RAFA is the fact that we would theorise everything and we would try our hardest to theorise everything because when you have these kind of conversations they want to like undermine what you say even though it is theory what we're saying. It is not something that's come out of the blue and there's this thing called the Deficit Model, where you have a lot of teachers trying to explain away inequalities in education. Statistically me and you people that look like us, ethnic minorities, we're less likely to achieve a first even if we come from the same area, you know have the same grades upon entry, and we have same gender. If me and you, we're not white, we are statistically less likely to achieve a first.

Sagal

That's crazy!

Rhoda

Exactly! That's what the data shows and when you speak to them about it they're like, "Oh but you know maybe it is our culture's, maybe you know it's etc". Are you really telling me that people ... sorry that everybody in this culture acts the same way and has the same attitudes to something? That's not true.

Sagal

It's a lie.

Rhoda

That's called a deficit model. It's not true, because when you start talking about that you take responsibility off your self and the actions you're doing and you put it on to the students which isn't true. It's not true like how can people not even feel comfortable coming to office hours, what are you doing? Why are your office hours there [then?]

Sagal

You know what's mad yeah, I wasn't even gonna bring this up here but you sparked something in me [laughter] but literally like the maddest thing about like the whole the university is that in terms of like [what you mentioned]... I noticed that as well I feel like people feel repercussions in terms of students, they don't want to say things in case like teachers mark them down or whatever. And it's just mad because like, that same lecturer you were talking about who like ... I remember that class, we were both in that class with him and he made that dodgy comment right and you know what's mad is that recently as part of [the] Decolonise [QMUL] I had like a meeting with the whole like, it was an interdisciplinary meeting with the whole Modern Languages [department]. Yeah, not gonna lie beforehand I was shook because I was like if I say something, and these lot start moving [mad] and start downgrading me ...

Rhoda

That's the thing!

Sagal

But the thing is, I was like, it is what it is I don't really care anyway. So I went to the meeting and stuff, yeah. And it was calm, I got invited there. So SLLF started to recruit more ... not more ... they recruited one non-white teacher in the school, right. And but the whole module stuff, right? Like you said, you mentioned the whole Afropean module and they're starting to do more modules in German as well and other subjects right, in other languages. And I went to this meeting yeah. And it was going calm, I was just talking about DecoloniseQMUL and like what like our main aims [are] and also like some of the issues that we've noticed blah blah blah. And when I was saying this, when I saying all these issues these lots were quick to like cancel it, like quick to say [otherwise]. For example I was talking about, like the fact that there's a massive wealth inequality / difference in our classes, right? I mean, I'm coming to class right, I'm ... fam there's days where I'm skipping classes because I can't actually pay for transport yeah or I'm not trying to ... I'm not willing to risk bumping transport and get caught and whatever. I'm actually missing classes and I'm worrying about finances yeah, and there's people in the class that are very wealthy, come from complete different backgrounds. Yeah. At the same time, the uni is not providing me with enough support. Like I was mentioning like why hasn't it been a thing of in your school, for example, like you know how before they used to like, they used to ... if you have like three classes you missed or something, you get penalized innit, like back in the day. And I was like to them, "how are you having policies like that, when they're students who have XYZ financial difficulties, you're penalizing students based on their finances, because they can't come into class and whatnot". And I was like, there's not enough [support]. I was waffling about the fact there's not enough actual financial support at uni at the moment in terms of, if you want to take out the financial hardship grant more times you need to take out a Maintenance Loan, but I'm not trying to take out Maintenance Loan because for Muslim students yeah, it's a bit sticky because of the whole interest thing. Right? I'm not trying to take interest and it's a whole debacle. Right? So you're already excluding certain students based on their faith, right. So it's just [mad], and I was like, "why hasn't it been a thing of ... Why haven't you guys introduced a travel grant in your school if you guys really care about making sure that all students can equally have equal access to classes". And these lots were quick to say that "there's support, there's etc". You know in the chat, the lecturers are dropping in, like the links for financial support.

Rhoda

So why is it now when your forced to have the conversation, you can drop support. Why didn't you drop the support already when this was being [brought up], please.

Sagal

The thing is that the support that we're dropping [in the chat] ... l literally spoke about that already. I just I already told you about it, they were dropping the same things. [...] The lady, her name is Maha El Hissy, I think her surname is [that]. She's great, she's amazing. She's a German lecturer, right. And she was the one who invited me to the meeting, when she wanted me to speak about like, the whole decolonising curriculum stuff ... so she kind of [probed] me to talk about that and I talked about it yeah. And then like, these lots were quick to say, "Oh, no, no, but we're introducing these modules, we're doing [this] etc". They like ... [I feel like] I was brought to the meeting for bants, basically, these lots didn't want me to say anything.

Rhoda

That is the issue! No thank you Sagal for saying that. Because they recruit us, they get us to speak just for the sake of us speaking. So they can say, yeah, we've done it, we've had this conversation, and it's done. But they're not really looking for answers. You're here to check off the list. Yeah, we have done this but you've not really done it, because you had a conversation and you didn't listen, and you continue to do the same thing.

Sagal

And more times, we're not being paid for our time and our efforts. So in the meeting I literally brought up, I was like, "Why aren't students being paid for doing consulting?" We're doing big, big work, right here. This RAFA2 project, where you paid for the RAFA2 stuff?

Rhoda

I was, luckily we were paid for RAFA2. But then that was one of the things that we did speak about as well. If you want students to engage in these kind of things, where it does affect policy, you have to pay them, why should students do the free intellectual labor, and even emotional labor to do that, because as a black person or person of color, there is emotional labor in engaging in these kind of conversations.

Sagal

100%

Rhoda

Lecturers will never take there time out and be like, "I'm gonna do this, this and this for the uni for free

Sagal

100%

Rhoda

but because we're students, we should do it for free?

Sagal

100%. There's whole marketing teams that are focused on about, like, getting more black students or brown students in to [study] certain subjects, but we're doing all the work for free - that doesn't make sense. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. And the maddest thing, this is what I wasn't gonna say yeah, because ... but fam I don't even care. But like ... you already know this. But like, this whole podcast was literally created because I saw [that] there was an issue - why are we not being told and why black students not being prepared about going abroad right. I spoke to the [team], emails upon emails, you were CC'd in them yeah, [but I sent] email upon emails to the staff and whatnot about the fact that you know, there wasn't even one presentation done about racism that you may face when you go abroad right. Not even one! They literally didn't mention [anything]. The madness thing is I was going to offices ... I was going into teachers' offices, and I was like, literally, I was being vulnerable telling them, "listen, I'm afraid of facing XYZ that I'm [anxious] and I'm gonna be alone. They'd be like, "No, no, it's okay, don't worry". That same lecturer, fam the way ... if I speak ... I have such a strong dislike for this lecturer and the maddest thing [is that] I went, and I did face [discrimination] in both countries. Literally, there wasn't even a country where I went and it was calm, like, I faced racism and Islamophobia in both places. And it's like, why am I having to deal with that by myself? I'm a student as well so this is a safeguarding issue.

Rhoda

100%

Sagal

It's so wild man.

Rhoda

And that's the problem that we were [saying] in the beginning about seeing things as colorblindness. I remember that ... I remember that Year Abroad presentation and I remember muttering to somebody next to me, "Clearly there's no black people who do French then", because I was like how do you have literally [no black person]. I think there's only one girl who go who was a mixed race I think or of a different ethnicity - I don't remember where she was from.

Sagal

She was Asian, I remember.

Rhoda

Yeah, there's only one girl who is a person of color and everybody else is white and I'm just thinking "Um, so you're telling me that there's no black people that study French". And this is why I say action has to be intentional because they could easily just reply to me and say, "well we put out the call and these are the people who responded to us", but that's not good enough I'm so sorry. If you want to make change and if you want to actually prepare us you need to be intentional with the action you're taking. To be intentional action is saying "hey, we want a diverse number of students to give presentations because we have a diverse cohort. We want the experience for everybody to be represented". You can't just leave it and be like - oh we asked people and this you responded to us. I'm sorry but that doesn't cut it. I'm going abroad by myself with no [one]. You lot are not coming with me, I'm going to face these problems. You lot needs to put in protocols and put in things to make me well equipped. For example with the whole Reunion thing, they sold it like "yes it's amazing amazing amazing!". I suffered things in Reunion that I would have never thought I would have suffered - I would've never thought it'd happen in reunion.

Sagal

And it's not okay that we went through it because other students are not having to deal with this at all, like I got stalked. Fam I'm fearing for my safety, I got stalked home, teachers [saying comments], it was coming from people of authority, and also at the same time from fellow Queen Mary students. I'm putting it out there - from fellow Queen Mary students who we're doing the maddest stuff so I'm like, you didn't prepare me for any of it. Like they were literally like "go" which is mad and like the good thing is at least like I'm so like thankful to God that I had a good family system back home and whatnot. At the same time, I did find people that I got on well with and and they did support me but like the whole thing of like when I told the uni about like listen, "Why hasn't ... why hasn't the support been done blah blah blah" and I proposed the idea of a podcast right because I was like fam let's get paid for this, like you know this is marketing for you lots ... air time ... air time! Different [laughter].

Rhoda

Can you imagine?! And then at the end of the year, they'll ask oh what can we do to improve ... bruv we've been telling you! We've been telling you!

Sagal

Man, it is literally ... it's actually embarrassing. Really and truly it's embarrassing.

Rhoda

On that point of support - you know when I was saying how I was facing racism and stuff like that yeah, so I remember I messaged the person who was coordinating the year abroad because when I was begging for an extension on the date because I was like I can't go back to Reunion, I had to explain to them why, so I told them everything about what happened and the club situation and the situation with my landlord briefly and they were like, "Rhoda, but ..." because I remember it got to a point where I stopped communicating with uni. I couldn't [anymore], everything was too much for me and I remember they were messaging me and getting onto me for not replying but I was like you guys are not really considering that you know, that I could be going through something. It was [just] like "why are you not replying, you should be replying, you should be checking your emails". And I remember saying to her "yeah just is what happened". And she was like "Rhoda, why'd you not tell me, why did you not say this sooner?" But let's be real. How can you expect me, and I said this to her as well, how can you expect me to have a conversation about racism when we have never provided the groundwork for us to even acknowledge race. You had a Year Abroad presentation you only brought one person of color and all white people. You guys have never opened the arena to have talks about race, so how can you expect me now to feel comfortable and just talk to you casually about the racism I experience. You can't be ... you can't be shocked that I didn't come to you about this because when have you ever been the person? Not even you [specifically] but when is it ever been the place [to speak about this]. I have never had the opportunity to speak about my existence as a black person in French. That's the issue. Yeah, I study French but my identity as a black person isn't really recognized in that department. So if you guys don't recognize me as a black person, why would I come to you and tell you my trauma about [my experience]. If I talk about colourism would you even understand what colourism means?

Sagal

100% and you know the thing is like [...] you're not going to get feedback from students about their experiences if you're not - like exactly as you're saying - if you're not providing that platform and also black students are not going to tell you it as well. Like I'll feel more comfortable telling another black Professor/ teacher/ student whatever

Rhoda

We don't even have one, that's the thing.

Sagal

It's a joke. It is honestly a joke and it's like ... I don't know honestly the whole situation is really like tiring as well and like Queen Mary in general, like you said before, [it's] 60% or what nearly 60% ethnic minority blah blah ... but fam the maddest is some of the buildings are named ... if you find out the names of some of the buildings, the history behind them [is horrible].

Rhoda

Oh my god, you just reminded me about you know the club that I got refused entry into. It's named after a slave owner as well.

Sagal

You know Draper's, that's named after a slave owner as well.

Rhoda

Are you for real? Oh my God!

Sagal

It's either Draper's or Bancroft Building, one of the two of them is named after a slave owner. One of them is involved in the whole nonsense that happened in India. [Yeah] one is to do it India and one is to do with slavery. One of them [if I remember correctly] is even to do with plantations in America. So listen, I'm gonna find out [exactly which is which].

Rhoda

I'm shocked but not surprised. They even have that - what's it called - I remember my history lecturer, I'm so sorry, there was literally a plaque commemorating or celebrating King Leopold the second on campus. It was removed I think ... it was removed [the year] before we came into ... maybe 2016 or 2017. I don't remember. And he just goes, "Yeah, you know, there was a plaque commemorating it, but we got it removed". But that's not the truth. It was Pan-African society before I was president who lobbied for it to get removed and we even had conservative students on the campus, saying that it shouldn't be removed because that's erasing history.

Sagal

But it's not English history, so why the flip is it there?

Rhoda

I'm sorry, but plaque or no plaque he still killed more than a million people in the Congo. So that plaque doesn't do nothing. What do you mean erasing history? We've not forgotten about that.

Sagal

The maddest thing is if you mentioned Hitler, "no, no, [that's different]". So the thing is, bring that same energy. If you want to talk about history, all right calm, build a plaque of Hitler and then let us have him there because you creating a plaque for someone is celebrating them, you're commemorating them.

Rhoda

It's true - why do we have memorials, why do we have statues of people if not celebrate? Please, people need to be honest with their conversations.

Sagal

It is all a lie man. It is so so so stupid literally.

Rhoda

I think you saying about the names of [buildings and the link to slavery] that really reminds me about the difference between Guadeloupe and Reunion. In the sense that in Reunion for example, clubs named after slave owners, you have different things named after slave owners. And I didn't know it was a slave owner you know until I found out the history about it and it's like you have different things which are named after very problematic troubled history. In Guadeloupe we don't find that. There's literally streets like 'Ho Chi Minh' street, you have things like 'Martin Luther King' Avenue. There's a statue could La Mulâtresse Solitude which is a statue commemorating a woman who was pregnant during a revolution - she led that revolution.

Sagal

Wow!

Rhoda

You have street names like ... Leopold Senghor street. Like Guadeloupe literally it has in its very infrastructure names that push forward activists, not only in Guadeloupe but also in other places but in Reunion, you still have this thing with ... how do you have buildings and places named after slave owners. That would not happen here. People would be like, "that's wild". People would be like that's actually wild.

Sagal

And ... that is so crazy ... but the thing is, it's become normalized init. Do you feel like when you were in ... so you said that obviously in Guadeloupe, people were very aware of the history right. Was that the same case in Reunion?

Rhoda

No, not at all. And that's also what I think affects the psyche. Oh, my God, another story is coming. Literally this has been like story, story, story, story! Do you remember, if you saw my stories the other time when we posted photos of the book we found in the library [which] was a racist charactiture of black people?

Sagal

I can't remember honestly.

Rhoda

It was literally very much just there chilling. It was a book. It was about a slave. I don't remember his name but it was supposed to be funny. And we literally opened the book it was ***trigger warning, trigger warning*** they would have [explicit scenes of slavery and rape]. They would called the enslaved person a monkey and I was like, how can this book be chilling here in a university library? We brought it up to the woman who was cataloging the books and she was like "oh yeah, we understand, we understand, hmmm, yeah, we understand [dismissive tone], we will take it off the rack but it will still be available for people to look at if they want to". Because we can't censor things and I was like "what do you mean?" This is clear full blown racism and you're telling me that us not wanting that there is centralization ... wooo ... sorry censorship.

Sagal

Fam french is making us [lose our english], listen the way ...

Rhoda

I cannot speak this English language anymore honestly! The better not ask me to do any presentation in English because I'll just be stuttering. Yeah, but like in Guadeloupe, you just wouldn't find the same thing like if there was something like that you I promise you people raise hell! People would raise hell. And that's not to say people weren't offended - people were very upset when I posted that stuff. People were upset and were offended by it. You know what I mean, but I do feel like the level of consciousness (that's the word I'm looking for) the level consciousness in Reunion isn't the level of consciousness that there is in Guadeloupe.

Sagal

Yes, that is so interesting. Fam. I have no more questions to ask and I don't know if you want to touch on anything else but it's so interesting to hear [your experience].

Rhoda

[In terms of the] RAFA2 thing ... just you know, constantly getting to the same platform and everything. The student experience ... has there been any improvements ... I mean, like I said before in the beginning, they keep adding modules to show how diverse they are but there need to be more than that. You need to do more than that.

Sagal

You know, that reminds me, you know when I was speaking to like that Professor she was [saying to me that] people in the school are happy to have conversations about decolonising the curriculum because it's easy to have right? Oh yeah, "let's [do this]". But for them, they misunderstand it because when we say decolonising the curriculum, they think 'diversifying'. They just think let me just add some more you know, modules. Add some like, I don't know, add a couple of black or brown authors to the reading list but decolonising the curriculum is much more than that - it's challenging [the centrality of] whiteness, right. And the whole idea of the 'cannon' and all that kind of stuff. She was like the more difficult thing [is that] when I bring up the fact that we need to hire more black and brown staff it's like you know uproar right. Like why are you bringing this up blah blah. And she's like when we talk about hiring more female staff they're like "yeah yeah yeah!". When it comes to hiring more black women and brown women there's silence. So it's so interesting and she's a lecturer and she said to me so it's like ...

Rhoda

That's the issue that there is at Queen Mary because it's like when things get racial, everybody wants to start stepping back and it's because they really think they they've hit the target with the fact that that the majority of the student body is of Black and ethnic minority background. They think they've hit that target, but it's not! And ... I don't know for me, how many more times are we going to have these conversations. For me it's happened since day one, since first year and I'm now in the limbo of third and fourth year and the thing is we're still having these conversations so it's a bit demoralising to be honest.

Sagal

It gets very tiring. Like honestly one of the things is that I am happy to leave uni. Like this is my final year and I'm happy to like finish because I'm like you know what I'm kind of done with everything, and [I want to] move on my life and just to leave this stage because uni can be, obviously it's a great environment and you learn so much things about yourself and blah blah blah, but as well it can be really like you said demoralising. All the change you wanna do and like maybe one of the things you propose gets done. So it's ... it's a lot but I mean like just in general to wrap it up honestly it's been so so interesting to listen to your experience of both Reunion and Guadeloupe.

Rhoda

Thank you for having me on!

Sagal

Thank you for accepting, for real because this has been so interesting!

Rhoda

Nah the platform is needed, do you know i mean. I remember when you came to me about this idea and you said - I was like "yes 100% 100%" because if I had heard some of these things, you know, before I went to the places I went to I think I would have been at least more prepared for what happened.

Sagal

Yeah.

Rhoda

And it just yeah, I mean, the whole thing sucks ... how do I say this ... even though I went through things in Reunion, I remember saying to myself, you know, I don't think it's fair that my white counterparts get to live their best lives and I have to suffer from this. I said to myself, you know what, I'm going to compartmentalise this and I'll deal with it later. I'm gonna live my best life because ... it's not fair! I wanna be here as well. I'm here ... I want to be doing things.

Sagal

I did that as well honestly. I literally like put that as like ... you know what this happened, lemme put it to the side and then when I got back home properly I had time to really think it through and honestly I feel like only in the last couple months have I fully gotten over everything. But not to scare people off from doing a Year Abroad because I feel like the Year Abroad is one of the most amazing things I've ever done in my life so far.

Rhoda

100%! I feel like coming to Guadeloupe for me ... you see how I'm not leaving ... [this was] the best decision I've made. And my french has improved so so much.

Sagal

Yes I can tell! Fam, you know when you were talking to your landlord [earlier] or whatever he's called yeah, I was hearing the way it was flowing ... the rhythm.

Rhoda

And I literally left UK being somebody petrified to make a mistake when I speak French so if you have the opportunity to do a Year Abroad please do it. Please please do it!

Sagal

Even just for like personal growth, like the way I've grown in that year.

Rhoda

1,000%

Sagal

People think it's cap you know when you're like, "Oh, yeah, you know like ..." when people waffle about, "I grew so much personally". Nah when you deep it the way I was before and now ... I'm two different people!

Rhoda

Bro I remember we were saying that the Year Abroad is character building. Do you know how many times we've cried? I remember we were in the supermarket and we were just literally hugging each other in the supermarket like "this is a lot, I need a hug right now". Honestly ...

Sagal

Nah man I cried a couple tears as well.

Rhoda

Honestly the growth you will go through is different and I think it's for the best because when you travel you also learn people's cultures, you open your mind so much more. And I feel like living in London, I really deeped like when you're in London, to be painfully honest, there this complex where you think it's the centre of the world. But it's not! There's so much more, there's so many more ways of thinking, so many things that you need to see. I think it's absolutely essential for people if you have [funds]. Like I get that traveling is a privilege - it is a massive privilege. But if you do have the opportunity - take it! You will learn so much about yourself and about others.

Sagal

Yeah 100%. That's a beautiful way to end the podcast. Honestly, again, thank you for joining me. It's been amazing.

Rhoda

Thank you it has!